semi-emergency - copper and ammonia

ExpensiveHobby · May 18, 2016

I have another thread going but this is more emergency related. Ive been running cupramine for about 6 days right in my fowlr display. I left the rock in there because i read in numerous places that the nitrifying bacteria would be fine. I lost a few hundred feather dusters on the rock and little brittle stars which I already knew would happen. Well my fish are looking much better and very active and eating but I still have a week or two to go. I have been skimming the whole time per SeaChem skimming is OK. I just checked my ammonia and I'm at .5ppm. Prime is not allowed during Cupramine.

Should I do a water change and add more copper to replace the copper that is removed in the water change?
Should I just let it mellow for a few more days and if it gets higher then do a water change?
Should I try to ride out the duration of the copper treatment and then do a massive change and get my carbon back online (this was my original plan but I didnt realize my ammonia was so high)
Is there something else I should consider doing?

Sabellafella · May 18, 2016

@Humblefish @melypr1985

ExpensiveHobby · May 18, 2016

humble and mel have been helping me a lot on my other thread
http://reef2reef.com/threads/got-ich-read-sticky-still-have-qs.248342/

melypr1985 · May 18, 2016

You'll need to do a water change to keep the ammonia down. The bacteria does take a hit during the beginning of copper treatment but it will make a good comeback. Until then, water changes are your friend. Redose the new water with copper before adding it to the tank. Also remember to test the copper often. Your live rock will absorb the copper and release it again in an unpredictable way making your copper levels go up and down. So make sure to test before and after each water change so you dont over dose it.

brandon429 · May 18, 2016

ill add as well, prime directly causes false ammonia readings, make no action based on an api test kit you've listed two clues already. your ammonia could be zero, need to confirm. the big wchange is ok, anytime, doesn't hurt to run one. we need a non api ammonia reading to know for sure the status of the filtration system
nitrite would help to know as well, but not via API same reasons. if you did something to truly affect ammonia, nitrite w be there as well in the truly bio shocked system.

melypr1985 · May 18, 2016

brandon429 said:
ill add as well, prime directly causes false ammonia readings, make no action based on an api test kit you've listed two clues already. your ammonia could be zero, need to confirm. the big wchange is ok, anytime, doesn't hurt to run one. we need a non api ammonia reading to know for sure the status of the filtration system
nitrite would help to know as well, but not via API same reasons. if you did something to truly affect ammonia, nitrite w be there as well in the truly bio shocked system.

This is true but he's not using prime because it makes the copper in the tank more toxic and will kill the fish. An ammonia alert badge by Seachem is a good alternative to both of these problems however.

ExpensiveHobby · May 18, 2016

ill pickup a seachem badge they sell them at my LFS

brandon429 · May 18, 2016

Oh he said prime not allowed lol saw that! Still, use no api

good catch

melypr1985 · May 18, 2016

brandon429 said:
Oh he said prime not allowed lol saw that! Still, use no api

good catch

You had it right though! I didn't mention this either, but the copper itself will cause the false positives with the API kit as well which is why we recommend the badge instead.

ExpensiveHobby · May 18, 2016

so is API good for anything?? Lol, their copper kit was totally useless and now apparently their ammonia kit is totally useless

melypr1985 · May 18, 2016

ExpensiveHobby said:
so is API good for anything?? Lol, their copper kit was totally useless and now apparently their ammonia kit is totally useless

Well it's fine enough. The problem was that the api copper kit is used to measure chelated copper not ionic copper. Then as long as the copper is present the ammonia kit is pretty useless but fine otherwise. It can be frustrating I know, but dont worry! You got this

Naiad · May 18, 2016

ExpensiveHobby said:
so is API good for anything?? Lol, their copper kit was totally useless and now apparently their ammonia kit is totally useless

Making pretty colors? I don't use any of their test kits so I can't comment on the more high end tests but the basic ones often have problems.

brandon429 · May 18, 2016

API is plenty good for high level assessments just not trace ones. Some people do have kits and reading techniques able to get a true zero reading, but for most the various confounds makes us shy away from basing tank decisions on their low level readings for any param. They sure catch lots of flak lol they need to fix those issues right up.

Naiad · May 18, 2016

brandon429 said:
API is plenty good for high level assessments just not trace ones. Some people do have kits and reading techniques able to get a true zero reading, but for most the various confounds makes us shy away from basing tank decisions on their low level readings for any param. They sure catch lots of flak lol they need to fix those issues right up.

You mean it can read my nitrate of 100 right but not most people's nitrate of 2. Seems perfect to me. Lol

nervousmonkey · May 18, 2016

ExpensiveHobby said:
so is API good for anything?? Lol, their copper kit was totally useless and now apparently their ammonia kit is totally useless

Their alkalinity test is pretty accurate, and I have one I use just as a quick reference to give myself a ballpark figure of where my tank is. That's really to keep the costs down from using Salifert daily. The API test on all other parameters doesn't seem to line up with Salifert or Red Sea, which are my two primary test kits.
Otherwise, I'm with @melypr1985 and @Naiad ..... The API kits are useful to make sure you are in the ballpark, but I would not recommend them for accuracy. There is a thread here that compares test kits to each other; I'll try to find it and link back here.

Humblefish · May 18, 2016

Definitely get a Seachem ammonia alert badge. All the die-off from the feather dusters/brittle stars could trigger an ammonia spike.

4FordFamily · May 18, 2016

ExpensiveHobby said:
ill pickup a seachem badge they sell them at my LFS

This. Other tests won't work during treatment you'll need the badge for accurate readings.

4FordFamily · May 18, 2016

Stay away from prime and amquel too. Any nitrite nitrate and ammonia detoxifier. It's been mentioned but for anyone reading they will all cause copper to become 10x more deadly and poisonous

brandon429 · May 18, 2016

Didn't know that about prime, neat to know another reef detail. Was that on the labels as a warning or was it poster discovered?

4FordFamily · May 18, 2016

brandon429 said:
Didn't know that about prime, neat to know another reef detail. Was that on the labels as a warning or was it poster discovered?

It's not on labels I don't believe but it's well documented. Surprisingly few people know about it despite me and many others on here reminding people daily.

I for one had no idea for years and killed so many fish trying to quarantine with copper and when I heard this it all made sense. I had been blaming copper when it was the mix of copper, ammonia, and a detoxifier like prime. So now it's copper and frequent water changes. No problems!