Seneye Experiments and Cycling

[Garf]

seneye owners are not reporting their systems drifting wildly away from reporting in the thousandths, when trimmed, on a full running reef


where's the doubt coming from regarding reporting stability? i dont own one to know but dont the slides have a useable life then you change out/calibrate another? if some of those vary from time to time like a QA fail at the production line then that's one thing, but reports from the field regarding seneye pretty much just smash all currently known cycling rules in the hobby with their consistency, tank to tank

again its agreed there's no baseline proof they're bottom-line accurate tank to tank

what I do like about them tank to tank is the relatively consistent final nh3 reporting numbers, across reefs, combined with what we already know about surface area dynamics (these align) and I also like how changing up surface area schemes quickly registers as a drop in oxidation rate on the machine, very very low lag report time


you can place seneye in new environments and closely capture various forms of ammonia conversion even as of this month I still say its the best tester we have access to.
our hobby ammonia assessment optionset is plagued by long lag times and inconsistent reads.

Maybe, but there is at least a chance that this stability between tanks is a function of errors due to biofilm fouling. Natural waters ammonia levels are all over the shop, tanks could be the same which would vindicate the Colorimetric tests that has received a bad rep. Enter NeonRabbit221B.

 

[Dan_P]

Super interested in what you find here. If there is a way to get this machine to function consistently im all about it.

What are you refering to when you say “function consistently”?

Under laboratory conditions, the Seneye temperature and pH track fairly closely and surprisingly (to me) quickly to a calibrated pH meter with an integrated temperature probe. The quality of the free ammonia measurement will require some graphs to fully characterize it. It is not as super wonderful but could be useful.

 

[Dan_P]

I did not. From what the tech support told me was that it can damage the slide.

I don't mind dosing some to see what the readings do but preferably not with a newer slide lol

I wondered about damage, but the slide continued to sense NH3 OK. After the test with Prime, I adjusted the pH in order to change the free ammonia level and it responded normally. With this observation, I continue to test Prime.

 

[LRT]

What are you refering to when you say “function consistently”?

Under laboratory conditions, the Seneye temperature and pH track fairly closely and surprisingly (to me) quickly to a calibrated pH meter with an integrated temperature probe. The quality of the free ammonia measurement will require some graphs to fully characterize it. It is not as super wonderful but could be useful.

Hey Dan. Is there anything your doing special to get temp and ph to track close or even consistently wrong? Is machine in dark or light taking readings?
I'll be honest my temp is always off by a degree or sometimes 2. I'm using 2 other temp probes in same sump now and the other 2 probes are tracking within less than half a degree to eachother throughout the day.
Temp is the worse for me even when trimmed it hardly ever actually trims correctly or stays trimmed between readings.
Ph is consistently off and that can be up to .4 one way or the other. Im using salifert, api ph kits to track that as well as having 2 different lfs confirm my test results weekly.
I'm somewhere near month 5 with mine and all my slides have tracked consistently all over the place as described.
What I meant is what kind of controlled setting is your seneye set up in? I'd like to try and duplicate that in my system. I dont even care if it reads wrong. I just want it to consistently read wrong one way or the other so I can use it as a Guage when I'm not at home at this point.
Par was right on money with brs investigates within 15 but alot closer in alot of spots and if you hold it just right on the edges of light.

 

[Dan_P]

Hey Dan. Is there anything your doing special to get temp and ph to track close or even consistently wrong? Is machine in dark or light taking readings?
I'll be honest my temp is always off by a degree or sometimes 2. I'm using 2 other temp probes in same sump now and the other 2 probes are tracking within less than half a degree to eachother throughout the day.
Temp is the worse for me even when trimmed it hardly ever actually trims correctly or stays trimmed between readings.
Ph is consistently off and that can be up to .4 one way or the other. Im using salifert, api ph kits to track that as well as having 2 different lfs confirm my test results weekly.
I'm somewhere near month 5 with mine and all my slides have tracked consistently all over the place as described.
What I meant is what kind of controlled setting is your seneye set up in? I'd like to try and duplicate that in my system. I dont even care if it reads wrong. I just want it to consistently read wrong one way or the other so I can use it as a Guage when I'm not at home at this point.
Par was right on money with brs investigates within 15 but alot closer in alot of spots and if you hold it just right on the edges of light.

Additional information.

I studied the Seneye performance in a 250 mL beaker with the pH probe about one inch away. The tank water was magnetically stirred. There was a litlle whirlpool in the beaker. I monitored the pH and temperature with a calibrated pH meter. What this all means is that I ensured the water visiting the Seneyed device was identical ti that which visited the pH probe. My experiments lasted less than 12 hours and I took readings 20-40 minutes apart. The temperature is typically low by tenths of a degree. For the three slides that I am studying, the pH is low by 0.1-0.4. The ammonia story needs to be covered separately, but I can say that it responds within 2-3 minutes and is fully equilibrated in 20 minutes.

Comparing a pH kit measurement to a Seneye pH might be tough The test kit variability might be as high as the difference between the two measurements. To remove as much variability as possible for a kit v Seneye measurement grst, put the Seneye in a pint of tank water. Stir it frequently over a one hour period. At the start, middle and end of the one hour period, measure the pH and temperature with the Seneye and your test kit and own temperature probe. This will really inform you about the difference.

As for the temperature difference between your probes and the Seneye, the fairer comparison is with the Seneye and your temperature probes next to each other. I bet you find the consistency with improve.

I don’t use the Seneye for remote monitoring. If I did, the alarm settings would not be set too tight to avoid nuisance alarms.

I hope this helps.

 

[davidcalgary29]

Ph is consistently off and that can be up to .4 one way or the other. Im using salifert, api ph kits to track that as well as having 2 different lfs confirm my test results weekly.
I'm somewhere near month 5 with mine and all my slides have tracked consistently all over the place as described.

The SUD in my RSM250 was measuring pH below 7.0 for most of the month (Hanna average: 8.1). Both this and the accompanying SWS were bought, brand new, in March.

The SWS/SUD combo that I bought off of eBay (and that has a cracked cover) has performed much more consistently, and reasonably, in my IM40 in the basement. I have a feeling that the SUD is easily affected by magnetic fields and or electromagnetic radiation from other tank equipment. My "wonky" SUD stopped reading altogether until I moved it away from my MP40...

Okay, so much for temperature accuracy. The slide in my RSM250 is set to expire in four days. Current temperature reading: 21.3C. Current temperature reading on magnetic strip and electronic probe thermometer: 24C.

 

[ingchr1]

My experience with temperature and pH.

I trimmed both to match my GHL P4 and found that both track well with the controller. However, about 7-10 days prior to slide expiration the pH starts to drift up.

...i dont own one to know but dont the slides have a useable life then you change out/calibrate another?...

Each slide has a code that you use to activate it. The activation is for 30 days, after that you no longer get pH and ammonia readings. You also need an activated slide to get text alerts. You will still get email alerts without an activated slide (for temperature and out of water).

 

[ingchr1]

Question, what does the bottom pad measure on the slide?

While replacing my last slide I found the bottom sensor to be stuck on (light constantly on). I cycled power to it and it still remained on. I contacted Seneye and they said it's failed and cannot be fixed. The readings will probably start to be affected by it.

While they can't fix it, they do sell a replacement for $76. Which I probably will do at least this time. The device is 2 1/2 years old, but probably has give or take 2 years of use. There was a period of time where I did not have it installed on the tank, was only using it to measure PAR.

 

[Dan_P]

Question, what does the bottom pad measure on the slide?

While replacing my last slide I found the bottom sensor to be stuck on (light constantly on). I cycled power to it and it still remained on. I contacted Seneye and they said it's failed and cannot be fixed. The readings will probably start to be affected by it.

While they can't fix it, they do sell a replacement for $76. Which I probably will do at least this time. The device is 2 1/2 years old, but probably has give or take 2 years of use. There was a period of time where I did not have it installed on the tank, was only using it to measure PAR.

The colorimetric film covered with the white covering measures pH. The uncovered film closest to the notch on the slide measures ammonia.

 

[gbroadbridge]

Nice work. I found similar results while testing a loaner Seneye. I will finish the testing in a couple weeks and publish the results.

Did you ever use the Seneye to confirm that Prime removes ammonia?

The seneye measures free ammonia, not ammonia + ammonium.

So yes, when Prime converts NH3 to NH4 the seneye reading drops.

 

[Dan_P]

The seneye measures free ammonia, not ammonia + ammonium.

So yes, when Prime converts NH3 to NH4 the seneye reading drops.

Did you do this experiment, add Prime to aquarium water containing ammonia and observe the Seneye ammonia reading drop to zero or to a much lower level?

By the way, the Prime chemical reaction is the conversion of hydromethylsulfinate to aminomethylsulfinate.

 

[ingchr1]

The colorimetric film covered with the white covering measures pH. The uncovered film closest to the notch on the slide measures ammonia.

Thank you.

It's the ammonia sensor that is stuck on.

 

[brandon429]

@Lasse

Please state how dry rocks sitting here didn't cycle without bottle bac added

 

[Lasse]

The nitrifying organisms can be found everywhere - even in dry rocks - and in this case the OP use ammonia sources with help of ghost feeding to farm his nitrification organisms and in 27 days the AOO (Ammonia Oxidating Organisms) was as many as the could process 20 % of the added ammonia during 24 hours. Is not any strange with that - this is nature. With help of soil, living sand, living rock, bottled bacteria or whatever containing nitrifying organism - you can do this more or less instantly. As I have describe in my 15 steps to start an saltwater aquarium. But oxidizing ammonia is only the first step in the nitrification process - the second is the processing of nitrite to nitrate.

I´m still thinking of windmills

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Just wanted to get that perspective from you, but regarding what Neon found again I'll state its not written in any formal training, its certainly not written by you recently that a tank can self cycle without our purchases within a month

I get the polar opposite takeaway from our last two years post interactions regarding reef cycle end dates.

it was nice of Neon to log some data regarding timing and outcomes. I wanted to reflect on the stark contrast between what's available for research on cycling and what forum peers advocate, vs what's being discovered now that people can track ammonia with greater precision. That's all a bunch of opposing claims now being tested out on equal playing grounds it seems.


with bottle bac sellers and testers vying for market position... free cyclers also have vital space to assume, but where's that option in training manuals you can find?

I noticed you didnt dismiss the seneye findings here as quickly. you can see some of the patterns in tuning and calibration that make it a decent device compared to color chart comparisons/estimates.


everyone always agrees so easily after posting how common this knowledge was, that pattern stands out

yet when I read any post history from them

 

[BanjoBandito]

 

[LRT]

Additional information.

I studied the Seneye performance in a 250 mL beaker with the pH probe about one inch away. The tank water was magnetically stirred. There was a litlle whirlpool in the beaker. I monitored the pH and temperature with a calibrated pH meter. What this all means is that I ensured the water visiting the Seneyed device was identical ti that which visited the pH probe. My experiments lasted less than 12 hours and I took readings 20-40 minutes apart. The temperature is typically low by tenths of a degree. For the three slides that I am studying, the pH is low by 0.1-0.4. The ammonia story needs to be covered separately, but I can say that it responds within 2-3 minutes and is fully equilibrated in 20 minutes.

Comparing a pH kit measurement to a Seneye pH might be tough The test kit variability might be as high as the difference between the two measurements. To remove as much variability as possible for a kit v Seneye measurement grst, put the Seneye in a pint of tank water. Stir it frequently over a one hour period. At the start, middle and end of the one hour period, measure the pH and temperature with the Seneye and your test kit and own temperature probe. This will really inform you about the difference.

As for the temperature difference between your probes and the Seneye, the fairer comparison is with the Seneye and your temperature probes next to each other. I bet you find the consistency with improve.

I don’t use the Seneye for remote monitoring. If I did, the alarm settings would not be set too tight to avoid nuisance alarms.

I hope this helps.

Thanks Dan. I actually just picked up another dual cool/heat ink bird controller and have that in sump with seneye as well. Im going to set seneye up with 2 controller probes in same spot with high turn over in my sump and see if I can get consistency at least on the temp side of things.
I have found the exact same thing with PH. Outside of a new tank start up that had PH swinging all over the map from .4-.8 high and low. My recent slides are showing up to .4 on the low side.
Hoping setting it in same spot with probes settles those swings out.

 

[Lasse]

can self cycle without our purchases within a month

For that bioload yes that you get from the rotten shrimps - but if you rise the bioload very much - as he did when he tested it (with adding ammonia) - only 20 % was processed during 24 hours. (80% of the added ammonia was still there. And we do not know how much was converted to NO2 and if some of it was processed to NO3) If he continue to add ammonia - the biomass of AOO will build up (there is food) and in the end it will succeed to process 1 ppm in 24 hours.

That a tank can process 20 % of the load in the first step is not any evidence of a total cycling. To say that - you must know if the second step is working or not.

I´m looking out through my window and I still see windmills

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

It’s to say that the system can carry the common bioload folks start with by day 30, and it’s to say the reason you can’t link any examples of a failed reef tank cycle at 30 days after multiple requests is because these claims are working. we have link after link of reefs carrying bioload on specific start dates, and you provide no counter claims that match for the opposite outcome. We havent been getting lucky, we’ve been following a basic cycle chart and ignoring api. You have no data to back up claims that a cycling chart does not inherently prepare a tank to carry bioload when it says it’s ready, but those very links have been shown to you in recent cycling threads.

you can tell until I see you link examples of anyone’s start date you called, or cycles you guided and tracked, we aren’t going to see eye to eye

two common clownfish and some corals that people routinely start with will be handled fine by the wait, unassisted cycling is how tanks were ran for years before the bottle bac boon.

inserting biochemistry formulas and non reef tank study links cant make up for simple logged pattern outcome and it certainly can’t allow someone to remark upon this thread’s precision nh3 tracking without any matched observations linked in balance


a test reef tank was made here for the data and your evaluations need the same in order to be relevant

 

[brandon429]

@NeonRabbit221B

considering how bacteria divide how would you think a sixty day wait would turn out

in my opinion your thread shows the ability to self support a nominal load at thirty, it should be doubled at sixty, that’ll be easy to test. Nobody minds having to wait two months if that’s the case required to carry a stronger bioload, and MSteven1 was able to move the ammonia rather well at day sixty here as well:

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Did the online calc indicate to use one mil in the tank for your gallonage

www.reef2reef.com

thats a decent amount of oxidation that matches the ability of most initial bottle bac purchases. If anyone is in doubt about the state of affairs in the hobby regarding perception of bacterial self-feeding ability, any common poll in the general forum can reveal how the trained public feels about the unassisted cycle

they’ll majority vote it’s not possible at either interval, 30 or 60. Considering log scale growth vs linear I would not expect a mere doubling of ability on twice the wait.

here’s another unassisted cycle turned into a reef

Build Thread - My SPS Waterbox Peninsula Mini 15

Beautiful build and scape!

www.reef2reef.com