Setting up a sump? ATO?

[Jon Fishman]

So.... Quick rundown needed. sump is divided into 3 sections and I have an overflow that hangs off the back

1) what goes in each section? What media etc? Where does the overflow from the tank feed? First section?

2). I have a skimmer that hangs on the tank now (will be upgrading) can I hang it on the sump directly?

3). I want one section to be a refugium. I have lights already, what other than chaeto do I put in there, rocks?

4). It is a 30 gallon sump, and it has the water return and pump, what section does this go in. Assume section 1-3 from left to right.... Section 1 has the tallest divider and holds the most water. Can I upgrade to any really good pump?

5). It came with another little pump (air?) that has a skinny rubber hose to it (comes off of 2 ends I believe. ). It is long enough to go up to the tank. What is this for?

6). How much water should the sump have? Until I get an ATO how far will the sump run down before it no longer fills and circulates the tank from evaporation?


As far as ATO, I want to setup two storage containers. One for top-off water that will constantly feed my tank, and one for saltwater for when I do water changes. Do many ATOs fill fast enough where I could remove say 15 gallons of water and just switch my ATO supply from my RODI water to the salt, to have it fill up from that, or am I still better off just dumping the 15 gallons of new salt back in for changes?

Can I or should I set up the ATO to refill water into the sump rather than into the main tank?

I am sure I will think of more questions. Thanks guys

 

[K-Philly]

Okay, I am going to address this as best as possible. Providing pictures of the sump would help tremendously as well.

For starters, we set the water level in the sump. This is where your water fluctuations will be noted. You will not see it in the main tank, because the water level there is held constant as it cycles through. Most water levels are set to a range based on skimmer designs. In sump skimmers have minimum and maximum water thresholds. These are what manufacturers set so that your skimmer will operate efficiently.

Sumps come in many different designs and people use the chambers in different ways. For example, I built my own sump. It is located on my own personal build thread. The first chamber is where the water pours in, and that is also where my skimmer is located. I have the water set to a range that I can wiggle with for upgrades on skimmer.

Chamber one and two are separated by a bubble trap, which is made of 3 baffles. Skimmers can put micro bubbles into the water column which can aggravate corals. The bubble trap helps break these up.

The second stage is my refugium. They are based entirely upon what you want to do with them. Most grow cheato and pods. Yes, you can add rocks. The pods may use this as a place to cling to if they don't already cling to the cheato or other surfaces. It also provides natural filtration for your aquarium. I would recommend having the refugium's light to come on at an opposite time of the display tank's light that way it helps stabilize pH.

My third chamber is where my return pump is. In my sump, there is no bubble trap between the second and third chamber. I felt like I didn't need one and that it is okay for some algae and pods to escape and go through the pump into the DT. I plumb to my actual pump and from there to my return valves on the tank. So water flows like this: Tank(drain) ----> Chamber 1 ----> Chamber 2 -----> Chamber 3 ------> Tank(return)

However people design them differently and you can google to find out what you want depending on your setup. As far as that pump and airline goes, I have no idea what that could be for other than attempting to aerate the water, and that's not necessary because the water is getting ample flow from this setup.

Now, it is very crucial for you to understand what I am about to say. Water evaporates, and salt does not. So, when pure water evaporates and you replace it with new seawater, you are going to raise your salinity of your water and kill your fish. Only replace seawater with seawater. This should be happening only during water changes, not topping off.

If your main tank quit filling due to evaporation, then I promise you that your fish are more than likely already dead. Because this would require the water level in the sump, to be lower than the intake of the return pump. Which would be a drastic amount of evaporation. I am unaware of anyone who would utilize 15 gallons of top off water that frequently either, unless they are living somewhere such as inside of a volcano. Not making fun of you either, just being humorous. Haha, but I forgot to address your question earlier about the HOB skimmer. Yes, it will work so long as it can get in the water of the sump appropriately. I would not recommend it being in your refugium. Either Chamber 1, or chamber 3. If you decide on doing something like me.

My advice to you, is to slow down. You seem to be in a rush and there are some things going on relating to the sump that you need to understand. Ask questions here, but also look around on the internet and see what all is out there. Don't just do what everybody tells you, because you may end up using a sump that you don't like. You will catch on, and they are not complicated designs either. They are as easy as you make it. But I can't stress enough to you how important patience is. If you skimp now, you can very possibly pay for it later. Don't research to regurgitate information, research to understand. The more you understand what is happening, the better off you will be. Good luck! I hope this helps and I will be around if you need more assistance.

 

[Jon Fishman]

 

[Jon Fishman]

Those are some pictures. Tough to see because the sump is already in the stand and I can’t take it out while the tank is on.

Those white PVC pieces are just sitting in there. So, I will put skimmer in the first one, Chaeto in second, and return in third after the three dividers (that must be the bubble trap).

I can’t just leave lights on 24/7 for the fuge?


There are hang on filters in it now just to clear up the water


The top will go on once these are gone. Couple of heaters in there too that will go in the fuge. I am going to run my powerheads a couple of days and have the store re-check my own tests on the water (I am practically color blind)

I am topping off with RODI but wanted to use the ATO to replace the salt only when I do water changes.

What sort of filters etc aside from rocks should go in the sump, and where? Can I put a HOB filter into the sump as well, or is this overkill?

 

[Jon Fishman]

 

[K-Philly]

Those are some pictures. Tough to see because the sump is already in the stand and I can’t take it out while the tank is on.

Those white PVC pieces are just sitting in there. So, I will put skimmer in the first one, Chaeto in second, and return in third after the three dividers (that must be the bubble trap).

I can’t just leave lights on 24/7 for the fuge?


There are hang on filters in it now just to clear up the water


The top will go on once these are gone. Couple of heaters in there too that will go in the fuge. I am going to run my powerheads a couple of days and have the store re-check my own tests on the water (I am practically color blind)

I am topping off with RODI but wanted to use the ATO to replace the salt only when I do water changes.

What sort of filters etc aside from rocks should go in the sump, and where? Can I put a HOB filter into the sump as well, or is this overkill?

Like I said, it’s entirely up to you. As long as you have a heater and skimmer in there, the sump is pretty much serving it’s purpose. The rest is entirely up to you, but anything HOB defeats the purpose of a sump. The sump is there to add extra water volume and to hide equipment.

 

[beaslbob]

When setting up sump do these tests:
a) insure no floods power off.
b) insure normal operation when power returns
c) block/fail overflow and insure the sump runs dry before the display floods.

 

[Jon Fishman]

c) block/fail overflow and insure the sump runs dry before the display floods.

Since the over-flow is a hang-on-back type (I'm not at work, so I can't take a picture of the one I have) there is no real way to "lower" the fill/overflow level on the tank, so you're saying that I should make sure my sump doesn't have enough water that when, completely emptied (minus what stays in the left-two chambers) won't over-flow my tank?

Is there a way with a hang-off-back over-flow to effectively lower my daily main-tank water level? As it sits right now, I have 3 inches or so from over-flow to top of tank.....



EDIT: Also thank you guys....

 

[beaslbob]

Since the over-flow is a hang-on-back type (I'm not at work, so I can't take a picture of the one I have) there is no real way to "lower" the fill/overflow level on the tank, so you're saying that I should make sure my sump doesn't have enough water that when, completely emptied (minus what stays in the left-two chambers) won't over-flow my tank?

Is there a way with a hang-off-back over-flow to effectively lower my daily main-tank water level? As it sits right now, I have 3 inches or so from over-flow to top of tank.....



EDIT: Also thank you guys....

You're welcome.

I think you got it on the failing the drain adjustment. Once you do that than return the system to normal operation. And mark the water level in the sump. then never ever add water above that line.

Most commercial HOB overflows whave some adjustment capabilities. But even without you should be able to do those adjustments. You can even make HOB overflows from $20 worth of pvc. But you probably don't wanna hear that. LOL

video in this thread on one type of pvc overflow:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diy-hob-overflow.399653/#post-4784693


my .02

 

[Jon Fishman]

I will get pictures when I get home, and try to get them up tonight/tomorrow. I'm not in a huge rush to get the tank up and going, but getting the old tank out/gone is a motivating factor.

 

[K-Philly]

I will get pictures when I get home, and try to get them up tonight/tomorrow. I'm not in a huge rush to get the tank up and going, but getting the old tank out/gone is a motivating factor.

Sorry, for the late chime in. I was diagnosed with pre-pneumonia systoms this morning and I have in and out of naps ever since. With that being said, I should be around tonight and tomorrow all day to help some more.

 

[Jon Fishman]

It has a spot on it to hook the rubber tube for an air-pump. I noticed when I hooked it up it started the over-flow process. The air-pump is loud...... aside from replacing it, I would like to make the overflow just work without needing an air pump at all.
The pump has a second tube coming off of it (much shorter) so I assume that goes in the sump??


Either way. Hectic day, so I didn’t get a bunch of pictures like I had hoped



So once the flow was established, I unplugged the air pump and it just kept draining (siphon effect) but I am worried that if that effect stops, the pump in the sump will obviously just empty out the water in the sump into the tank and then the sump pump will run dry until it dies...... I guess this where the “don’t put more water in the sump than the tank can hold” part comes in.


So, Rocks in chamber 1, Chaeto in 2, and return pump in 3. I will put skimmer in the first chamber too.

Charcoal, bio-balls etc not needed? Some substrate in with either chaeto or rocks ok? I have all of the crushed coral from my last tank so I could put a few inches in both of these to help with filtration

 

[Jon Fishman]

Also, really quick...... is there a difference in the "Curve 5 Elite Protein Skimmer Sicce SK-200 Bubble Magus, and the "Curve 5" that doesn't say "Elite" ? I am leaning towards one of these.

 

[beaslbob]

IMHO you need some form of air pump with the hob siphon setups. Both for starting and removing air bubbles while running.

I used a power head with the aerator bubbler type thingie. Just hooked the bubbler to the siphon to remove air. I did take a high flow powerhead but it did (re)establish the siphon in about 30 seconds or so as lone as there was water on both sides of the u tube. One advantage was the power head fit in the outside box and was at the same height. So it was hidden plus the airline itself would be come a slow siphon.

my .02

 

[Jon Fishman]

IMHO you need some form of air pump with the hob siphon setups. Both for starting and removing air bubbles while running.

I used a power head with the aerator bubbler type thingie. Just hooked the bubbler to the siphon to remove air. I did take a high flow powerhead but it did (re)establish the siphon in about 30 seconds or so as lone as there was water on both sides of the u tube. One advantage was the power head fit in the outside box and was at the same height. So it was hidden plus the airline itself would be come a slow siphon.

my .02

Thanks.... sorry, I'm an idiot..... so the powerhead wasn't a submersible kind? Can you give me a link/name of the one you use specifically?

My hang-off-back protein skimmer has a power-head hooked to it with a little air-hose to go from power-head to "air" outside the tank...... is it this type of thing I should connect to the over-flow? I would guess that would give it enough air? The pump for my skimmer though is submersible, and doesn't go outside the tank.

I guess "Inside" the tank would eliminate the noise though, but I would want one with magnets..... I'm done with suction cups!

 

[beaslbob]

Thanks.... sorry, I'm an idiot..... so the powerhead wasn't a submersible kind? Can you give me a link/name of the one you use specifically?

My hang-off-back protein skimmer has a power-head hooked to it with a little air-hose to go from power-head to "air" outside the tank...... is it this type of thing I should connect to the over-flow? I would guess that would give it enough air? The pump for my skimmer though is submersible, and doesn't go outside the tank.

I guess "Inside" the tank would eliminate the noise though, but I would want one with magnets..... I'm done with suction cups!

Anything that sucks out the air from the siphon is acceptable. But if the protein skimmer air hose provides air to the skimmer bubbles that would not be a good idea.

I think I used one of the larger marineland maxi-jet power heads for mine. You can always use the power head in tank for circulation also. Long time ago I used 1/4" square plastic grid (egg crate) 3" in front of my back glass. To form an in-tank refugium. Powerheads were excellent for holding the top off the back glass.


link: http://www.marineland.com/products/...irculation/maxi-jet-multi-use-water-pump.aspx


my .02

 

[Jon Fishman]

Anything that sucks out the air from the siphon is acceptable. But if the protein skimmer air hose provides air to the skimmer bubbles that would not be a good idea.

I think I used one of the larger marineland maxi-jet power heads for mine. You can always use the power head in tank for circulation also. Long time ago I used 1/4" square plastic grid (egg crate) 3" in front of my back glass. To form an in-tank refugium. Powerheads were excellent for holding the top off the back glass.


link: http://www.marineland.com/products/...irculation/maxi-jet-multi-use-water-pump.aspx


my .02

Thanks..... I wasn't suggesting using the skimmer's pump.... just the same type! I will probably just pick up the one you linked..... I have 4 Hydor power-heads (two 1,500 gph ones, and two 800's or so) but I guess you can never have too much flow.


EDIT: O.k ordered one.....

 

[Jon Fishman]

Hydor Performer Skimmer 705..... Is it meant to sit OUTSIDE of the sump, and plumb into it? Says "in sump" but pictures from instructions are confusing.

 

[beaslbob]

Hydor Performer Skimmer 705..... Is it meant to sit OUTSIDE of the sump, and plumb into it? Says "in sump" but pictures from instructions are confusing.

don't know.

But FWIW the wife's skimmer is outside the sump. We found out very early to place the skimmer in a plastic jar. They leak.

 

[Jon Fishman]

OK. so another dumb question!

How high should the sump water be? I am assuming in order to work, the flow has to go from high-to-low (for the bubble trap). So I should not just “fill it up”.

I wasn’t overly cautious about how much water I filled because I am not ready to add fish etc, but my sump level is “even”


Should all three chambers be filled independently so when one is full it runs off into the next?

Here is a picture of what I believe is a “too full” sump.




You can see in the first one the water line is way above the bubble trap.


Keeping it lower than the other chambers, and not running dry, will be near impossible until I get an ATO setup