Several fish died...depressed

[MattPG]

Have a 75g DT with 25g sump. System is 1.5 yrs old. Had 2 clowns, 2 banggai cardinals, diamond gobi, foxface, skunk shrimp, 15ish small crabs and snails CUC. Also have started corals; 8 softie frags. Three days ago found the clowns kind of hiding and no other fish around. Finally yesterday found what's left of the foxface being enjoyed by a crab. Water parameters: temp 88, sal 33.6, amo 0, nitri 0, nitra 2, Ph 8.3, Alk 9.0 from yesterdays testing. These are essentially identical to what I have been running. Only thing I have done differently in the last week is a thorough algae cleaning of the back wall and gyre 5 days ago. I have done this before and while the water gets murky for a few hours the filtering (sock, skimmer) have it back to clear in 8hrs. The clowns, shrimp, CUC, AND corals all seem fine. Feel like I let them down...Any ideas?

 

[Mechano]

I’m sure it’s a typo but better to ask…was you water at 88 degrees?

 

[MattPG]

I’m sure it’s a typo but better to ask…was you water at 88 degrees?

It was, temp is 78

 

[brandon429]

I would guess fallow (of all additions from the pet store, corals, cuc, anything wet) and quarantine weren't used

Start there, not with parameters since this is a fish only kill

These events comprise all the entries we see in the disease forum and are the prime motivators for beginning disease preps

Disease transfer is this rough nowadays, can't be avoided

How long ago was your last addition from a pet store

Anything wet from a pet store vectors disease into the tank, a separate holding tank is needed to fallow out each new addition before it goes into the main display

 

[brandon429]

Notice this detail

Nearly everyone builds reef tanks with fish first, not last, this is 99% guaranteed to be your issue, study this thread

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[doubleshot00]

You probably need to do a 50% WC and run carbon.

 

[Mechano]

I have to agree with Brandon. The only way of preventing this is a fallow period and fish must be quarantined and even treated (even if no issues seen) to be safe. It’s just not worth it wiping out a tank

 

[MattPG]

I would guess fallow (of all additions from the pet store, corals, cuc, anything wet) and quarantine weren't used

Start there, not with parameters since this is a fish only kill

These events comprise all the entries we see in the disease forum and are the prime motivators for beginning disease preps

Disease transfer is this rough nowadays, can't be avoided

How long ago was your last addition from a pet store

Anything wet from a pet store vectors disease into the tank, a separate holding tank is needed to fallow out each new addition before it goes into the main display

Don't use pet stores. Only buy from aquarium stores where fish are not sold until they have been there 4 weeks. The last addition was 2 weeks ago. Have not seen any visible signs of disease. Clowns and shrimp are still alive and well.

 

[MattPG]

I have to agree with Brandon. The only way of preventing this is a fallow period and fish must be quarantined and even treated (even if no issues seen) to be safe. It’s just not worth it wiping out a tank

Thanks, have not quarantined as the store has a great reputation and I have never had an issue. Need to start Q tank.

 

[MattPG]

Notice this detail

Nearly everyone builds reef tanks with fish first, not last, this is 99% guaranteed to be your issue, study this thread

Has anyone done coral/inverts only and no fish at first?

Fish seem to be the main cause of disruption in a display tank, given the current circumstances in the hobby with pests (ich, velvet, parasites, etc.). I have been in this hobby for 18 years, and the amount of pests that are showing up lately is much more (could also be the fact that we have...

www.reef2reef.com

Thanks

 

[Sharkbait19]

When was the last fish added?
I’m not sure if it was a disease (though that is the most likely if no inverts are affected), but to be sure I agree a fallow + quarantining the surviving clowns is the safest route.
How did the fish act before dying? How rapidly died deaths occur? Is there enough surface agitation?

 

[srobertb]

sorry. Feels bad man.

It’s so hard to say…did you just lose the foxface or other fish too? You only mention finding that one? Foxface IME are skittish. A 75g feels a bit cramped and it may have been stress got to them- especially after a cleaning. These fish can be less hardy than some others like clowns, gobies, etc.

There are certain individuals here who will absolutely immediately jump in with “oh, your fish died? It’s because you didn’t follow this 45 step, 60 days acclimation guide I wrote.” I don’t think they’re wrong, however….

I’m not sure that’s practical for the average aquarist running an enthusiast-sized tank with space limitations. I also have a local store that is reputable and quarantines their fish for you in a professional and tested manner. You pay a premium in exchange for not doing it yourself. There are also online stores with great reputations that quarantine for you.

Illness can exist in your tank, just like in the air around you. Not every cold you catch will present with symptoms. The same can go for fish. My toddler coughs in my face when I’m well rested and not stressed? Might be fine. Does it after I got zero sleep the night before and I may spike a fever.

I will throw out an alternate cause- a Eunicid Worm or other predatory pest. I have personally had one that was big enough to take down a foxface hide in a 29g biocube (but no, I did not have a foxface in a biocube) I also lost some fish and my clowns were acting terrified.

A red light over the tank and a cheap time lapse camera running overnight caught him in the act. A little piece of shrimp rubberbanded on a rock to lure him out worked too. Although I had to tear down the tank to get it out and it fought me tooth and nail.

Sorry for your loss. It happens. Thank you for taking the time to try and understand why. That’s the important part.

 

[brandon429]

In my opinion there's no way to avoid this initial challenge because no pet store is going to advise buyers to fallow every entrant, or that you can't qt from a pet store due to aerosolization from all the other tanks

You can only get that info here or in humblefishs forum after you post about the initial losses

Everything is angled to sell to you vs inform you

 

[brandon429]

Pet store =lfs= pet co =wal mart =any retail store, they're all the same regarding disease vectors because they're bulk in- out profit models

The best place you can trust to do it for you is dr reefs online qt fish, or fishotel = specialty online shippers

Not pet stores

You need to do 90 day fallow at your house for hard scape or wet items added. This is different from quarantine

 

[MattPG]

When was the last fish added?
I’m not sure if it was a disease (though that is the most likely if no inverts are affected), but to be sure I agree a fallow + quarantining the surviving clowns is the safest route.
How did the fish act before dying? How rapidly died deaths occur? Is there enough surface agitation?

So the last fish was added April 26. Fish all disappeared on May 8. It was one day they are here and the next gone. I did not notice any difference in behavior prior to the disappearance. The foxface turned up the following day partially eaten by crabs. I have searched the overflow, sump, filter and DT for signs of the rest of them, nothing. The clowns and skunk shrimp are still there although the clowns are hiding in an oyster shell they like. Today I also noticed some small (1mm) white "bugs" on the tank glass. Look like water fleas and this is the first time I have seen them.

 

[MattPG]

Pet store =lfs= pet co =wal mart =any retail store, they're all the same regarding disease vectors because they're bulk in- out profit models

The best place you can trust to do it for you is dr reefs online qt fish, or fishotel = specialty online shippers

Not pet stores

You need to do 90 day fallow at your house for hard scape or wet items added. This is different from quarantine

Thanks, I appreciate the suggestions.

 

[brandon429]

those amphipods/copepods won't factor, and oxygen isn't a problem in anyone's reef tank. when it is, animals other than fish will hover at the water line every morning. they stay evenly distributed in any reef tank besides stilled ones because currents are sufficient in reefing given the bioloads we work at to eliminate lack of oxygen as a component in any malady I've ever seen from a reef tank.

 

[MattPG]

In my opinion there's no way to avoid this initial challenge because no pet store is going to advise buyers to fallow every entrant, or that you can't qt from a pet store due to aerosolization from all the other tanks

You can only get that info here or in humblefishs forum after you post about the initial losses

Everything is angled to sell to you vs inform you

Thanks for the info and suggestions

 

[MattPG]

In my opinion there's no way to avoid this initial challenge because no pet store is going to advise buyers to fallow every entrant, or that you can't qt from a pet store due to aerosolization from all the other tanks

You can only get that info here or in humblefishs forum after you post about the initial losses

Everything is angled to sell to you vs inform you

Could you possibly send me the best source for QT and fallow process?

 

[brandon429]

Fish Disease Treatment and Diagnosis

A forum for discussing treatment and diagnosing saltwater reef fish.

www.reef2reef.com

for sure the best way is a mini course investigation into presentation patterns there, and remedies Jay does in pattern

I did this and enjoyed it. one night over coffee pull up the ipad at home and begin there above reading the first help thread post. notice the response patterns there and go to the next post in line. do a few pages worth, the stickies at the top of this forum have all the info but now they're up to fifteen stickies lol I think you get more out of watching presentation patterns and resolve patterns from Jay, he runs an aquatics zoo/high level fish vet in my opinion. watch him work

look for hidden gems in their data like this: take each new help thread poster for any given page on the disease forum

click their avatar

click find all threads

go to thread #1, or post #1, right there is a date and time and usually a mention of how old someone's tank is/when it started

what's the pattern among 2-3 pages in the disease forum for tank age? (under 8 mos)

and as a sub-pattern noted, what's the rate of disease onset for tanks older than eight months, but recently adding fish store wet items with no fallow (high enough to make them present all over that forum, actual % risk tbd)

that kind of data mining is fun, and the specific hedge to you losing fish upon restocking. you have to run your best game at it, this hobby is not easy for sure it's elite to be able to keep mixed reef species. in the 90s it was the hardware that limited us, cost exclusion to owning reef tanks and disease was low

now its opposite, equipment is cheap/ish/turnkey and now fish themselves are $$ and disease is just filthy rampant in unimaginable ways within the hobby, that's the change curve you've got to stay ahead in reefing now.

there is no book or forum on the internet that will beat self guided discovery there, or at humblefish forums. those two places, best disease interception training in all of reefing.