Sexy seaweed

[Subsea]

As a macro growout facility, I am somewhat of an expert on seaweed considering that I have grown macro for more than 30 years and eat it on occasion.

Niels Bohr Quotes
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.

Using Niels definition, I can definitely claim expert. For this discussion on “seaweed going sexual” I will ask a few scientist & experts to join in. In no particular order of expertise:

@Lasse @Scrubber_steve @Dan P @Dana Riddle

To define terms: Seagrasses are true marine plants with roots &;flowers. Seaweeds are macro algae. Unicellular algae is phytoplankton.

My first sexual event with macro algae was in a 150G tank with 1000W MH with color rendition of 6500 Kelvin. Both Caulerpa Paspoides & Caulerpa Prolifera were growing like gangbusters, water clarity was stellar when I went to bed with lights on. When I woke up, even in the dark, “Houston, we have a problem”. Even with lights on, I could not see the back of the tank. I brought in extra canister filters with activated carbon and cleaned up tank in a few hours with no other catastrophic events except for devastated Caulerpa forest. Some years later, in a 55G growout tank, Bortacladia went sexual and one year later, I had
Red Grapes everywhere.

Earlier this morning on algae forum, I posted this:

Any seaweed can go sexual: “die and spread dna spores”.

Th fast growing Caulerpa are the most prone. This normally happens when macro is growing fast and uses up available nutrients.

Not so dissimilar as ULNS whose SPS corals crash.

 

[Dana Riddle]

As a macro growout facility, I am somewhat of an expert on seaweed considering that I have grown macro for more than 30 years and eat it on occasion.

Niels Bohr Quotes
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.

Using Niels definition, I can definitely claim expert. For this discussion on “seaweed going sexual” I will ask a few scientist & experts to join in. In no particular order of expertise:

@Lasse @Scrubber_steve @Dan P @Dana Riddle

To define terms: Seagrasses are true marine plants with roots &;flowers. Seaweeds are macro algae. Unicellular algae is phytoplankton.

My first sexual event with macro algae was in a 150G tank with 1000W MH with color rendition of 6500 Kelvin. Both Caulerpa Paspoides & Caulerpa Prolifera were growing like gangbusters, water clarity was stellar when I went to bed with lights on. When I woke up, even in the dark, “Houston, we have a problem”. Even with lights on, I could not see the back of the tank. I brought in extra canister filters with activated carbon and cleaned up tank in a few hours with no other catastrophic events except for devastated Caulerpa forest. Some years later, in a 55G growout tank, Bortacladia went sexual and one year later, I had
Red Grapes everywhere.

Earlier this morning on algae forum, I posted this:

Any seaweed can go sexual: “die and spread dna spores”.

Th fast growing Caulerpa are the most prone. This normally happens when macro is growing fast and uses up available nutrients.

Not so dissimilar as ULNS whose SPS corals crash.

Many Caulerpa species can go sexual in a hurry. Not only that, but some of their exuded compounds (when not going sexual) could *possibly* have negative impacts on some stony coral species.

 

[Dana Riddle]

As a macro growout facility, I am somewhat of an expert on seaweed considering that I have grown macro for more than 30 years and eat it on occasion.

Niels Bohr Quotes
An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made, in a narrow field.

Using Niels definition, I can definitely claim expert. For this discussion on “seaweed going sexual” I will ask a few scientist & experts to join in. In no particular order of expertise:

@Lasse @Scrubber_steve @Dan P @Dana Riddle

To define terms: Seagrasses are true marine plants with roots &;flowers. Seaweeds are macro algae. Unicellular algae is phytoplankton.

My first sexual event with macro algae was in a 150G tank with 1000W MH with color rendition of 6500 Kelvin. Both Caulerpa Paspoides & Caulerpa Prolifera were growing like gangbusters, water clarity was stellar when I went to bed with lights on. When I woke up, even in the dark, “Houston, we have a problem”. Even with lights on, I could not see the back of the tank. I brought in extra canister filters with activated carbon and cleaned up tank in a few hours with no other catastrophic events except for devastated Caulerpa forest. Some years later, in a 55G growout tank, Bortacladia went sexual and one year later, I had
Red Grapes everywhere.

Earlier this morning on algae forum, I posted this:

Any seaweed can go sexual: “die and spread dna spores”.

Th fast growing Caulerpa are the most prone. This normally happens when macro is growing fast and uses up available nutrients.

Not so dissimilar as ULNS whose SPS corals crash.

LOL. I guess I am close to being an expert, as I have made just about every mistake possible.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Kinda agree with your point here, most reefers associate algae going asexual due to light, but in my opinion this is only possible wend there is a lack of nutrients and essential trace elements. Dying by starvation, very similar to Cheeto but for some reason people worry more about caleurpa going asexual than Cheeto.

 

[Subsea]

Many Caulerpa species can go sexual in a hurry. Not only that, but some of their exuded compounds (when not going sexual) could *possibly* have negative impacts on some stony coral species.

I am glad you put *possibly* on some stony coral species. In 48 years of reefing, I have zero experience with stony coral, except what few came in with diver collected live rock from Gulf of Mexico.

Some years back, I read a research paper on gene expression in which a live rock with attached macro algae was placed next to a stony coral. Within a few days fish begin grazing on the macro algae that was placed next to the stony coral. Researchers removed the stony coral from the vicinity of the macro rock with subsequent decrease of fish grazing. The hypothesis was that macro algae changed its gene expression in the presence of the stony coral.

Frontiers | Evaluation of Mixotrophy-Associated Gene Expression in Two Species of Polar Marine Algae

Mixotrophic flagellates can comprise significant proportions of plankton biomass in marine ecosystems. Despite the growing recognition of the importance of t...

www.frontiersin.org

While a totally different scenario, this recent paper said,

“the physiological and molecular mechanisms underlying mixotrophic behavior are still unclear. In this study, we performed RNA-Seq transcriptomic analysis for two mixotrophic prasinophytes”

Exudation of dissolved organic carbon by brown algae - Marine Biology

The release via exudation of dissolved organic carbon by Ascophyllum nodosum (L.) Le Jol. was investigated under laboratory conditions. In contrast to results previously reported by Sieburth (1969), continuous release of organic matter was found with only 1 specimen out of 21 tested either in...

link.springer.com

https://www.int-res.com/articles/ab_oa/b010p131.pdf

These two links deal with with exudates of two different algae’s, brown & green, with exudates expressed as DOC.

With respect to DOC, it gets above my “pay grade” fast. However, when I watched BRS TV Video Series on algae filtration with a full blown SPS tank, I see much merit for using seaweed as a biofilter. I have been zero water change for quite a few years. I am fairly sure I will make more mistakes in operating a 5000G mariculture facility that has a zero discharge permit from the state of Texas.

A Cajun Aggie in Austin
Patrick Castille

 

[Subsea]

Kinda agree with your point here, most reefers associate algae going asexual due to light, but in my opinion this is only possible wend there is a lack of nutrients and essential trace elements. Dying by starvation, very similar to Cheeto but for some reason people worry more about caleurpa going asexual than Cheeto.

Seagrasses & seaweeds go asexual often on the natural reef with no shortage of light. Research scientist have witnessed sea turtles grazing on Seagrasses & seaweeds on large patches that had previously gone asexual. When nutrients were released. the new growth was more nutritious than old growth.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Seagrasses & seaweeds go asexual often on the natural reef with no shortage of light. Research scientist have witnessed sea turtles grazing on Seagrasses & seaweeds on large patches that had previously gone asexual. When nutrients were released. the new growth was more nutritious than old growth.

It’s somehow harder to understand the reason in the wild, as not every condition can be accounted for. But in captivity we can control most of the conditions and take better notes on the subject.

 

[Subsea]

@Lasse
Because I am a simple man, I often express subject matter in a general way.

With respect to DOC, both corals and algae produce exudates as a byproduct of photosynthesis. As I see it, using an algae filter on an opposite light cycle allows DOC to go back and forth between corals and algae. I don’t have to measure it. The corals and algae have had plenty of time to work out their strategy on doing it..

 

[Lasse]

I start to use the abbreviation DOC in order to make it much clearer what we put in when we use vodka and other organic carbon sources in order to rise the biomass of heterotrophic bacteria. But your right - sugar is DOC and it will be natural produced by photosynthesis and released back and forth as you stress. Maybe we should use EDOC (external dissolved organic carbon) when we referees to NOPOx, vodka and other products

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Subsea]

I start to use the abbreviation DOC in order to make it much clearer what we put in when we use vodka and other organic carbon sources in order to rise the biomass of heterotrophic bacteria. But your right - sugar is DOC and it will be natural produced by photosynthesis and released back and forth as you stress. Maybe we should use EDOC (external dissolved organic carbon) when we referees to NOPOx, vodka and other products

Sincerely Lasse

It took me 30 years to put into words what you & I just expressed, THANK YOU for that affirmation.

@Katrina71 “called it right” when she labeled my methods as organic. I knew it was so and I operated without wavering.

 

[Subsea]

It’s somehow harder to understand the reason in the wild, as not every condition can be accounted for. But in captivity we can control most of the conditions and take better notes on the subject.

Your intuition serves you well. However, I am not so sure we can take better notes. Depends on your definition of “better”. In my experiences, you can not accurately maintain the complexity of the
“coral holobiont” in a 90 day lab experiment.

I will digress. Your use of the word “wild” where I would have said “Nature”. As an avid outdoorsman, I have come to embrace the Beauty of Nature.

I just did watch Blue Planet 2, all 8 episodes. When coral, bacteria and algae crosstalk and adjust gene expression, I say that is SPECIAL

I will leave this conversation with a favorite quote.

“As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature.” Walter Adey

 

[Lasse]

It took me 30 years to put into words what you & I just expressed, THANK YOU for that affirmation

Me too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[sixty_reefer]

Your intuition serves you well. However, I am not so sure we can take better notes. Depends on your definition of “better”. In my experiences, you can not accurately maintain the complexity of the
“coral holobiont” in a 90 day lab experiment.

I will digress. Your use of the word “wild” where I would have said “Nature”. As an avid outdoorsman, I have come to embrace the Beauty of Nature.

I just did watch Blue Planet 2, all 8 episodes. When coral, bacteria and algae crosstalk and adjust gene expression, I say that is SPECIAL

I will leave this conversation with a favorite quote.

“As many naturalists and environmentalists have suggested, we should set aside our arrogance,
our desire to conquer and control everything, and walk hand in hand with Mother Nature.” Walter Adey

Hi haven’t chosen my words wisely, all I was trying to say is that some algae’s change they’re behaviour in home aquaria compared to what they would do in nature. Most of our reefs run at a steady temperature and light conditions for many years without any changes. In nature we get seasons and light, temperature and nutrients will vary accordingly. In nature some algaes will go asexual or dormant according the season. My point being that the information that hobbyists need is the information collected in home aquaria condition.

For example

The frilly halimeda

This algae produces gamete wend light is reduced, in nature it would go asexual after this stage and regrow in the new season, in home aquaria we can increase light and skip that stage.

Or keep it at a steady condition we’re the gamete are always visible.

I think all am saying is data collected in home aquaria is more relevant to the hobby that data collected in nature. Especially wend we referring to macro algaes as they’re behaviour and needs is much harder to predict and maintain than corals.

Coral study’s won’t apply to this discussion am sure as that would be a different discussion am afraid.

 

[Subsea]

Hi haven’t chosen my words wisely, all I was trying to say is that some algae’s change they’re behaviour in home aquaria compared to what they would do in nature. Most of our reefs run at a steady temperature and light conditions for many years without any changes. In nature we get seasons and light, temperature and nutrients will vary accordingly. In nature some algaes will go asexual or dormant according the season. My point being that the information that hobbyists need is the information collected in home aquaria condition.

For example

The frilly halimeda

//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190728/1e27d6e92accda15b98f89f0c38970b2.jpg

This algae produces gamete wend light is reduced, in nature it would go asexual after this stage and regrow in the new season, in home aquaria we can increase light and skip that stage.

//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190728/33c05dc862c3b99ba92aa1040c7ede62.jpg

Or keep it at a steady condition we’re the gamete are always visible.

I think all am saying is data collected in home aquaria is more relevant to the hobby that data collected in nature. Especially wend we referring to macro algaes as they’re behaviour and needs is much harder to predict and maintain than corals.

Coral study’s won’t apply to this discussion am sure as that would be a different discussion am afraid.

Kudos to your observations and thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I think it takes data from all sources to form a complete understanding. .Particularly with respect to Red Seaweeds.

Marine Plants In The Aquarium: An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

An online guide to the identification and care of marine plants and macroalgae in the aquarium.

www.marineplantbook.com

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

 

[Subsea]

Kudos to your observations and thank you for sharing your knowledge.

I think it takes data from all sources to form a complete understanding. .Particularly with respect to Red Seaweeds.

https://www.marineplantbook.com/images/reproduction.bmp

Marine Plants in the Aquarium

macroalgae, marine plants, caulerpa, refugium substrate, marine macroalgae for sale

www.marineplantbook.com

As a further thought on “complete understanding”, the interpretation of data is of most relevance.

Interpretation requires a broad understanding of all components. Biochemistry is complex and living systems are dynamic as well as “holistic in nature”. Living components in any system, including lab tanks interact and often are dependent on each other.

 

[Subsea]

Hi haven’t chosen my words wisely, all I was trying to say is that some algae’s change they’re behaviour in home aquaria compared to what they would do in nature. Most of our reefs run at a steady temperature and light conditions for many years without any changes. In nature we get seasons and light, temperature and nutrients will vary accordingly. In nature some algaes will go asexual or dormant according the season. My point being that the information that hobbyists need is the information collected in home aquaria condition.

For example

The frilly halimeda

This algae produces gamete wend light is reduced, in nature it would go asexual after this stage and regrow in the new season, in home aquaria we can increase light and skip that stage.

Or keep it at a steady condition we’re the gamete are always visible.

I think all am saying is data collected in home aquaria is more relevant to the hobby that data collected in nature. Especially wend we referring to macro algaes as they’re behaviour and needs is much harder to predict and maintain than corals.

Coral study’s won’t apply to this discussion am sure as that would be a different discussion am afraid.

The quality of picture is outstanding. Is this in your home aquarium? Your experience & knowledge is a gift to be shared. You should post more in algae forum. As you have observed, seaweeds are more complex with 4 stages. .

By photo intensity you manipulate a macro algae to stay in a beautiful stasis as determined by light intensity. I think that is fantastic to do. You have gifted me with that knowldge. Please show more on this thread. I am OP. I welcome input.

 

[sixty_reefer]

The quality of picture is outstanding. Is this in your home aquarium? Your experience & knowledge is a gift to be shared. You should post more in algae forum. As you have observed, seaweeds are more complex with 4 stages. .

By photo intensity you manipulate a macro algae to stay in a beautiful stasis as determined by light intensity. I think that is fantastic to do. You have gifted me with that knowldge. Please show more on this thread. I am OP. I welcome input.

Am flattered from your kind words, but am just a good observer. This algae is indeed in my tank I discovered it around 8 months ago as a hitchhiker in between others that aren’t usually seen as a sump algae, it’s a personal hobby to go out to LFS and collect specimens that have hitchhike on corals, Nutrients haven’t been an issue in my tank since I’ve built the continuous phytoplankton refugium, since den I have been using the space were I used to grow invasive species like caleurpa for more ornamental algaes. I must add that after I’ve introduced a continuous source of phytoplankton to the reef, I have been blessed to observe many unusual things happening in my home aquarium, one of them in particular is a dendrodoris nigra that also came as a hitchhiker as a young slug and somehow has grown in to a lovely specimen feeding on sponges that have grown in the reef.

 

[Subsea]

Am flattered from your kind words, but am just a good observer. This algae is indeed in my tank I discovered it around 8 months ago as a hitchhiker in between others that aren’t usually seen as a sump algae, it’s a personal hobby to go out to LFS and collect specimens that have hitchhike on corals, Nutrients haven’t been an issue in my tank since I’ve built the continuous phytoplankton refugium, since den I have been using the space were I used to grow invasive species like caleurpa for more ornamental algaes. I must add that after I’ve introduced a continuous source of phytoplankton to the reef, I have been blessed to observe many unusual things happening in my home aquarium, one of them in particular is a dendrodoris nigra that also came as a hitchhiker as a young slug and somehow has grown in to a lovely specimen feeding on sponges that have grown in the reef.

Your TLC has indeed produced outstanding results. Others should learn from your observations. Please elaborate on your continuous source of phytplankton. Do you Culture phyto? Do you have other filter feeders? How long have you been doing sponges?

Initially, I started with cryptic sponges but since have addd sponges from Gulf of Mexico, 20 miles west of Tampa Bay in 30’ of water.

 

[Katrina71]

@najer I think you may enjoy this

 

[Subsea]

@Lasse
Because I am a simple man, I often express subject matter in a general way.

With respect to DOC, both corals and algae produce exudates as a byproduct of photosynthesis. As I see it, using an algae filter on an opposite light cycle allows DOC to go back and forth between corals and algae. I don’t have to measure it. The corals and algae have had plenty of time to work out their strategy on doing it..

I start to use the abbreviation DOC in order to make it much clearer what we put in when we use vodka and other organic carbon sources in order to rise the biomass of heterotrophic bacteria. But your right - sugar is DOC and it will be natural produced by photosynthesis and released back and forth as you stress. Maybe we should use EDOC (external dissolved organic carbon) when we referees to NOPOx, vodka and other products

Sincerely Lasse

@Lasse
As operators of munincipal waste water treatment facilities, we see reef aquarium biochemistry from a unique point of view. For me, it adds clarity in a murky arena.

I started the Quest of a marine aquarium in September of 1971. After 4 years in the Air Force, I entered The Texas Maritime Academy undergrad Marine Engineer curriculum. During that first semester I took Chemical Oceanograhy as a technical elective .

Two things became apparent: athmosphere, ocean and sediment are connected and depndant on each other thru the carbon cycle and E=MC2. Eiensteins equation from an engineering point of view is expressed as the First Law of Thermodynamics.

From my point of view as a reef hobiest and one that exercises zero water change, Einstein’s law defines the exchange of glucose between corals & algae on opposite light cycles.