Shimmer on Kessil vs Radion

[Frop]

Hydra ftw!! Oh how did that get here?

 

[pugcrush]

@pugcrush is the disco ball effect as apparent in real life as it is in your video?

Ha, you made me turn on my lights. Now I'm seeing things. I certainly don't want to steer you the wrong way. I did shoot that on a 'bluer' spectrum - somewhere between 14k - 20k. The iphone already makes things bluer & I think that's why it shows the surface shimmer. If you go to the 2 -3 videos prior, they all were in 10k - 12k. I think it has less of a disco ball effect.

Now, IMO; there's two parts to the 'disco ball' that you have to break down I think. Previously mentioned the color blending - whether you specifically see red's, green's, & every other color. You never see this on the kessils. It's just slightly there with the latest radion IMO. The second part being the shimmer. The camera magnifies it, especially an iphone. Here's a some clips of the Ecotech tank with 2 XR30 pros (gen 4) from the last MACNA. I used my DSLR, which doesn't magnify the shimmer. I'm pretty sure you won't see as much of a disco ball affect.

 

[rbrtio]

That is a cool fish!

Your explanation helps, it is the color blending, or lack thereof, that seems to stick out to me in a bad way. When I can identify the different colors, usually most apparent on the sandbeds.

 

[shred5]

On a different note, given the shallow dimensions of the tank 12" and the 24" width, if I went the Kessil route, would the A160 be sufficient? Buying the A360 and running it at 30% seems wasteful if the A160 at 60% will get the job done. All of the reviews and documentation indicate they have the same spread and it is just the power output that differs.

Right they have the same spread just for different depths.
How deep is the tank?
Personally I would use two fixtures no matter what because of shading with led fixtures that use pucks/clusters or a fixture with two pucks.
I would reduce wattage and go two fixtures. I have a 3' long tank with two pucks and I am thinking of adding another. It is ok with softies but even some gorgonia suffer from shading. Anything branching sufferers. Some are fine and have no effects from shading.

 

[rbrtio]

@shred5 It is 12" deep and 24" wide.

 

[2JZ]

I agree with what shred5 says about the shading. I have the IM25 lagoon with the Kessil 360 and love the shimmer and color this light provides. It's a great light for this size tank. Problem is I'm SPS only and because of the single light source, shadowing is becoming an issue with branches blocking light to the under side of my SPS corals. I'm planning to switch to T5 soon to reduce this shadowing effect. But I'll miss my shimmer unless I do some sort of hybrid light.

 

[Terry4505]

I run my Kessil A360W-es with 4 80w T5s and could not be happier. When I first set the tank up, I ran a G3 Radion next to one of the Kessils to test, I liked the Kessil hands down. I had G3 Pros on my old tank:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/terrys-180-sps-peninsula-upgrade.218181/

 

[shred5]

I agree with what shred5 says about the shading. I have the IM25 lagoon with the Kessil 360 and love the shimmer and color this light provides. It's a great light for this size tank. Problem is I'm SPS only and because of the single light source, shadowing is becoming an issue with branches blocking light to the under side of my SPS corals. I'm planning to switch to T5 soon to reduce this shadowing effect. But I'll miss my shimmer unless I do some sort of hybrid light.

Yea that is why I almost always suggest doubling the fixtures with led and especially with single puck/cluster fixtures.
If you can go to a lesser wattage fixture which will be cheaper and use two it is better. Kessil offers two lower wattage fixture AI offers the prime which is also a decent fixture.

I would not suggest doing just a two puck fixture either you want the light sources spread out even with two pucks, this is for smaller tanks.. with two or more it is a lot of light in a small area.

Bigger tank multiple pucks is better and especially deeper tanks.

Now there are also different fixtures out there and different rules can apply. Like some of the Chinese fixtures which actually do not have clusters.

 

[ReeferMaddness843]

@rbrtio I think the 160s will work just fine. So far so good. We shall see in a month or two once everything has been on this tank, but I think it's definitely adequate lighting. I have softies, LPS, and SPS so I'll be able to let ya know more as time goes.

 

[rbrtio]

Hmmm...

From a financial perspective with 2 pendants, mounts, etc we are pushing well past where T5s may be a more feasible option in this scenario. I wouldn't get the shimmer and would have more heat to deal with, but I wouldn't have shading issues and we know T5s can promote great growth and coloration.

Lighting this tank by far seems to be the most difficult decision.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Frankly, I would take a look at the halide hybrid from @Reefbrite . It's a MH with LED's; dimmable halide ballast with 20K bulbs that have a point source that provides shimmer along with blue XHO LED's that provide the spectrum most corals are used to in the wild. This combination will be able to grow anything and one could cover your entire set up. I'm running two reef brite halides along with hydra's set to the blue channels.
It is a lot cheaper than the Kessils or Radions. @reefwiser runs this, eye catching corals, Sanjay and a lot of other big names run this light because it can grow things so well but looks so good. Since your tank is only 12" deep you could set it high AWL, and ramp the halides up and down throughout the day. It would look great and since it's a single point source of light, it looks like the sun in your tank, as the sun is also a single point source.
It's worth looking into; I love reefbrite lights, they have always helped me grow corals well, so of course I am partial to them, but i have kessils running on a tank with T5's and two ReefBrite LED XHO and have run Radions, but always go back to what makes my tank grow the best and look the best...

 

[reefwiser]

Having had Radions and Kessil and now running the Reefbrite+MH light. I can say from a coral stand point the corals love the MH+reefbrite best. I have bee having corals changing colors after being under the Radions for over a year. Nothing has changed but lighting. Now the Radions and Kessil's look great to the human eye. But to the coral they are way short on what THEY need. Everyone spend's so much time adjusting the lighting to what THEIR eye likes they don't spend time thinking about what the coral likes. Shimmer is great but if it doesn't give the corals what they need what good is it. Adjusting colors on a LED puck is so much fun but if it doesn't give the corals what they need it becomes useless and impedes the growth and color of the corals. Do you really need to mount Radions 20 inches above the tank at full intensity to get them to work as I have seen many people doing now. Or buy 10 Radions mounted on a tank to try and get the same coverage of 3 MH and two reefbrite strips. It just get's to be out of hand somehow. Spending vast sums of money to do something that was already prefect.

 

[bif24701]

Kessil is king of shimmer

 

[shred5]

Hmmm...

From a financial perspective with 2 pendants, mounts, etc we are pushing well past where T5s may be a more feasible option in this scenario. I wouldn't get the shimmer and would have more heat to deal with, but I wouldn't have shading issues and we know T5s can promote great growth and coloration.

Lighting this tank by far seems to be the most difficult decision.

Well that is one issue with led lighting is it can get expensive diminishing any savings.. You start adding more fixtures and you loose some of the advantages too.

t-5 is a very safe route to go I have used t-5 and to this day is the easiest lighting I have used..
Hybrid fixtures is a good alternative giving you the best of both worlds but expensive.

 

[GoVols]

Best of both worlds.
Kessil shimmer and spread with T5 fill in and par.

 

[Rakie]

The shimmer of LED's has mostly to do with it's particular lens. I say this because having had Radion, Kessil, and ReefBrite (ALso a cheapy Marineland blue pop strip) I can tell you the ReefBrite alone was the one with almost zero shimmer, regardless of surface agitation.

It is also, the ONLY option out there which does not have any optics or lens. So it's not an LED thing specifically, it's the optics on the LED's that produce the shimmer. That is why the Kessil SHimmer is most like the MH shimmer, singular point source. This is also why the other brands have the 'disco ball' effect -- Individual optics can't blend. If they were all under a singular optic like a kessil, they would produce kessil like shimmer.

 

[GoVols]

The shimmer of LED's has mostly to do with it's particular lens. I say this because having had Radion, Kessil, and ReefBrite (ALso a cheapy Marineland blue pop strip) I can tell you the ReefBrite alone was the one with almost zero shimmer, regardless of surface agitation.

It is also, the ONLY option out there which does not have any optics or lens. So it's not an LED thing specifically, it's the optics on the LED's that produce the shimmer. That is why the Kessil SHimmer is most like the MH shimmer, singular point source. This is also why the other brands have the 'disco ball' effect -- Individual optics can't blend. If they were all under a singular optic like a kessil, they would produce kessil like shimmer.

+1
Rakie did your get in the ReefBrite's?
If you did, Do they do the what you wanted?

Thanks, Freddie

 

[Rakie]

+1
Rakie did your get in the ReefBrite's?
If you did, Do they do the what you wanted?

Thanks, Freddie

Yes they showed up and I mounted them. I had to actually drill my Powermodule (non LED powermodule) to make them fit.

I would say for what they do, I think they're overpriced. Additionally, mine came with a dent so I ended up with the scratch & dent special price for it, which was nice. Overall? Not worth it.

- Shimmer? Not worth it for a blue XHO, shimmer is a 1 or 2/10, you can barely notice when it's on even by itself due to lack of optics on LED's

- Spread? Pretty good. Almost 2x3' from a 24" bar. The wide body, reflectors and LED's without optics give you a super wide light (which is why there is no shimmer from them)

- PAR/PUR? REALLY Strong. I run a 6x24 ATI fixture. The XHO puts out 60w of 450nm blue LED's, which is roughly 40% the PAR/PUR of my 6x24. So within a day the XHO was burning my SPS. So I'm having it on in the AM for about an hour, and the PM for about 4 hours and adding in 30 min to AM & PM times each week.

- POP? Meh. Can't see the pop with 6 bulbs on. Can't really see the pop with 4 bulbs on. Barely see the pop with 2 bulbs on. As far as POP, it's not even a 10th of what I was told to expect. Whatever pop it delivers gets washed out by the T5's

- What would I have liked? Probably the addition of 2 SemiLED UV chips. Pure blue XHO actinic pop is nice, but I think it would have given much more 'overall pop' from a balanced 20k strip. Dollars to donuts, when I ran radions I got more "pop" from a 20k spectrum setting that just having the Royal Blues on. LED's in general make colors pop, but I'm convinced there's a little more to it than just the 450nm blue spectrum after owning the 'king of POP' led strip and being let down.

OR, I'm specifically color blind to the fluorescence of 450nm coral pop.

 

[GoVols]

Yes they showed up and I mounted them. I had to actually drill my Powermodule (non LED powermodule) to make them fit.

I would say for what they do, I think they're overpriced. Additionally, mine came with a dent so I ended up with the scratch & dent special price for it, which was nice. Overall? Not worth it.

- Shimmer? Not worth it for a blue XHO, shimmer is a 1 or 2/10, you can barely notice when it's on even by itself due to lack of optics on LED's

- Spread? Pretty good. Almost 2x3' from a 24" bar. The wide body, reflectors and LED's without optics give you a super wide light (which is why there is no shimmer from them)

- PAR/PUR? REALLY Strong. I run a 6x24 ATI fixture. The XHO puts out 60w of 450nm blue LED's, which is roughly 40% the PAR/PUR of my 6x24. So within a day the XHO was burning my SPS. So I'm having it on in the AM for about an hour, and the PM for about 4 hours and adding in 30 min to AM & PM times each week.

- POP? Meh. Can't see the pop with 6 bulbs on. Can't really see the pop with 4 bulbs on. Barely see the pop with 2 bulbs on. As far as POP, it's not even a 10th of what I was told to expect. Whatever pop it delivers gets washed out by the T5's

- What would I have liked? Probably the addition of 2 SemiLED UV chips. Pure blue XHO actinic pop is nice, but I think it would have given much more 'overall pop' from a balanced 20k strip. Dollars to donuts, when I ran radions I got more "pop" from a 20k spectrum setting that just having the Royal Blues on. LED's in general make colors pop, but I'm convinced there's a little more to it than just the 450nm blue spectrum after owning the 'king of POP' led strip and being let down.

OR, I'm specifically color blind to the fluorescence of 450nm coral pop.

Rakie,
Thanks for your very detailed response!

You always cut to the chase with great incite.

FYI... I tried 2 of those E5 "Blue Pops". Total garbage!!!!!!!!!!!
I finally opened one up and it was just those very thin led strips that you can buy at Home Depot in like 50' lengths.
Took my BTA a month to come back out after they freaked it out.

Regards, Freddie

 

[Midrats]

If you are considering the Reefbrite halide light get ready for some heat! They are nice lights but it's going to really heat up your 25g tank. Plus adding supplemental blue to a Radium bulb is like putting ketchup on an 80 day dry aged ribeye. Radiums are perfect all on their own. Just my opinion of course. I'd go with the a360we if it were me. I despise color separation and there is none with Kessil. I also like the simplicity of the design, one knob for color, one for intensity. To my eyes it looks the most natural.