Shipping Gaurentee is a joke here

[Potatohead]

The large carriers have their own planes. FedEx has the largest fleet in the world I do believe.

Yes but they are not using them for every shipment, not even close

 

[NS Mike D]

No one should be shipping livestock during the current world pandemic. Every carrier has stated they no longer can meet over night criteria. Not only that some items have a higher priority than others.

No hobbyist should be buying. And if they do ask the vendor to tag it and keep it until shipping gets back to normal. They shouldn't have a issue with that.

I have ordered livestock online, being informed of the risk of not having a delivery guarantee. If the delivery was delayed and caused livestock death, I assumed that risk.

I am a grownup and am capable of deciding what risks I am willing and not willing to take.

I understand the unusual circumstances that have resulted in the shipping companies to suspend their guarantee policies and why the sellers don't want to assume the shipping risks.

Ultimately the cost of delivery guarantees is factored in and paid by the consumer. Predictability is a huge part of that cost. Factors outside the control of the vendors and shippers are greatly affecting the predictability. Until the cost of that predictability falls back to reasonable levels, the only economic solution is "best efforts" which is a risk and cost born by the consumer - which as I said, is always born by the consumer in the long run.

 

[Chincaca]

The cost is factored in? Yet you state it's the consumer to bear the loss. Then why is the consumer paying a higher cost that factors in % of loss by a company, person, if the they don't compensate for a loss of the product bought by the consumer.

 

[User1]

Speaking for me personally. I read the live arrival guarantee and was ok with it even if it's just store credit. I took the risk of eating the $40 shipping if something went wrong.

There wasnt a big surprise gotcha. It was all in writing so I understood what I was getting into & saw where the riots were happening. The weather looked ok so if it was delayed a day I thought the fish would be ok

Different vendors have different rules. I dont understand why we need a standardized set of rules based on a few people's opinion. If you dont like their rules then dont give them your business. The market will sort it out for you.

I'm not talking about one rule for all. I'm only speaking to the current policies of most, if not all, carriers. This also includes supply chain around the world be it manufacturing of testing reagents, head lights for cars, or masks for nurses. As you say let the buyer decide what business they want to support - fine by me and not my concern.

My comment is about carriers suspending service guarantee and the hobbyist ordering, and possibly expecting, normal service SLA's. So now we are left with who pays. Carrier stated they don't guarantee. Seller ships. Buyer receives DOA. Seems to me a loss to both parties because carrier is covered...

Again - not about vendors and their guarantee today or comparing to others. It is more about why would anyone order knowing supply chains and fright are pressured with no guarantee. I wouldn't order but that is just me. I don't judge if you do other than if it is DOA don't complain.

Edit1: I see a post about accepting the risk - agree. Your choice on what is acceptable.

 

[NS Mike D]

The cost is factored in? Yet you state it's the consumer to bear the loss. Then why is the consumer paying a higher cost that factors in % of loss by a company, person, if the they don't compensate for a loss of the product bought by the consumer.

I trust you understand that the world is dynamic and the dynamics of livestock online sales has shifted.

The price of guaranteed shipping factors in the cost of losses due to delay (as is DOA policies). The cost of delay is no longer sufficiently predictable so that vendors and shippers are willing to underwrite losses due to delays.

Since livestock online sales continue to take place without the traditional guaranteed shipping and DOA policies, individuals are will to assume the risk.

Under normal conditions, shippers had achieved very high degree of on-time delivery so that the cost of the guarantees had (before coivd) become negligible. For example. FedEx still ships everything to Nashville at night. It's how they achieve next day delivery. That cost doesn't change. But the ability to fully staff a warehouse to process all the packages has been compromised due to stay at home and 6 feet between workers. So a simple assumption the mere suspension of the guarantee provides a cost saving to pass on to the consumer is not valid. There are costs and risks that can't be readily quantified, while the market still is willing to pay the premium for a best effort overnight delivery service.

 

[OnPointCorals Verified Sponsor]

Hi Chincaca,

I couldn’t agree more. A while back I made this thread nailed down your point exactly.

Sellers Policy Discussion

I am posting this here as I’m an Acro guy and 99% of my orders I make are sps. Something has been bothering me for awhile and I’m at the point that I need to say something. There is an up ticking trend that has almost got to the point of being standard and acceptable. It’s is not acceptable...

www.reef2reef.com

“sorry carrier delayed, not on me” is BS and should not be tolerated. I’m upset this is the majority of sellers putting that in their doa. I will not buy from anyone who states that.

 

[EMeyer]

“sorry carrier delayed, not on me” is crap and should not be tolerated. I’m upset this is the majority of sellers putting that in their doa. I will not buy from anyone who states that.

Agreed, but more - threads like this one talking about this policy are important so sellers realize how unfair this policy is, and change it.

The risk should be shared between both parties, this policy places all the risk on the buyer and is ripe for abuse.

Buyer should be on the hook for shipping costs (which are non refundable), seller should be on the hook for coral costs. This way, in the event of a delay&DOA, both parties share the loss. Thats how more or less all professional companies handle it. Covid or no covid. No reason smaller sellers should be any different.

 

[swiss1939]

No insults. . . . . it's . . . G U A R A N T E E

While we are at it! This board seems to think that L Y I N G is spelled lieing and it makes me cringe every time!

Ha


And i think an important part of doing business in an industry like this, with product like this that most hobbyist sellers do not do, which they absolutely should do, is invest in some form of business insurance to cover a sort of loss prevention. Or even just considering the fact that they are running a "business" you write off these shipping losses as business losses on taxes at the end of the year.. so if you want to participate in this hobby business you should be covering losses like this because you already financially factor in these losses in your yearly expenses and taxes. And if you aren't doing either one of these things.. insurance or writing losses off in taxes, then you shouldn't be running your hobby business.. At least at the level of risking your product through shipping.

The problem is more so... Too many people running a non legit fly by seat of pants business who should not be doing it.

Stop buying from these people and they will stop selling their stuff, or at least stop selling long distance.

There was a thread not too long ago where someone was getting so much advice to just start their business cause it's so easy.. Not a lot of discussion around exactly this risk involved. The risk is on the seller as it's part of their equation of profit vs loss and all businesses need insurance no matter how big or small.

 

[Krzydmnd]

I doubt many sellers ever get into the hobby to sell their coral. I had no idea there was even a 'hobby' market until I got into it reefing. Now, two years later, I'm in a position w/ my tank where I'll start to need to get rid of some coral, and personally, I'd rather give them away or trade to local reefing friends than even deal with the headaches of selling through a forum.

Point is, we're mostly not businesses who can absorb those kinds of losses to offer full refunds, and I'm aware of the reality of circumstances beyond the control of both parties in a selling/buying situation, so if I purchase in the grey market coral channel I'd expect to assume some of the liability when it's clearly neither parties fault.

I understand the position that delayed shipments pose on both seller and buyer, however awareness and responsibility would seem to be on both sides in most hobby purchase situations.

If I purchased from a seller who is in the industry for profit and has a legitimate business set up then I would expect them to assume the shipping liability.

The reality is in our hobby that we're dealing with some of the most expensive living animals in a trade market, (ironically inflated by our desire for rarities, among other factors) and a large number of these animals are sold by hobbiests, and then we ship them with our fingers crossed hoping to NOT get that follow up email stating a DOA arrival.

 

[swiss1939]

Now, two years later, I'm in a position w/ my tank where I'll start to need to get rid of some coral, and personally, I'd rather give them away or trade to local reefing friends than even deal with the headaches of selling through a forum.

This type of awareness is needed by people doing hobby selling.

I think the OP is right, and many detractors are right. The risk is on both parties. But what I think the OP gets absolutely right is there is this idea in this hobby that its OK for hobby sellers to participate in long distance selling when they do not accept any responsibility for this risk. You can't run a business and get all the benefits of it when they are good, while refusing all the negatives of running that business correctly.

My point is, if you are a hobbyist selling expensive livestock long distance, you are running a business while pretending not to be a business if you ignore or refuse to prepare for these risks and should seriously consider not shipping livestock if you are not willing to at least replace or partially refund losses. The fact that many do not get into the hobby with the intent to act as a full blown business is of no importance, because they have willfully entered into a risky business transaction without covering their "assets".

No greater example of someone who should not be running a business! And like you said, if you need to get rid of stuff, sell locally if not willing to bear that burden, or even better.. pay it forward and give some stuff away locally. But that is wishful thinking in a thread discussing hobby sellers who refuse to accept the risks involved in running a business because they "arent" a business!

For this reason, I wouldn't buy from someone long distance for anything more than cost of shipping unless they have a physical storefront or solid searchable long term feedback on here. One or two positive comments is not enough.

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

I am a hobbyist who has shipped maybe 20 or so packages of coral, and bought a few myself. I have the same DOA "policy" that is mentioned, mainly because it's what everyone else had so I figured there was good reason. I've never actually had any issue with coral in shipping or with customers trying to get any sort of refund. Though I still had that sort of DOA written in my posts, I still would have worked with anyone who did have an issue and likely would have offered up a refund if the circumstances warranted it, or offered to send a replacement shipment at the cost of shipping only ( another way of sharing the burden of shipping delays).

Just because people have that written up as a policy, doesn't mean they are trying to screw anyone over. They are just trying to cover their butt's. For many of us, this is a hobby after all and I spend enough money on it already. Last thing I need is to worry about having to pay $50-60 in shipping plus lose whatever frags someone may have bought because of a screw-up by Fedex or UPS. That would deter many hobbyists from ever trying to ship I think. I think it also makes it harder for someone to try to find some sort of loophole they could abuse to screw over the seller somehow. Not sure exactly how, but maybe a shipment is slightly delayed, and they see the frags aren't as big or vibrant as they thought, so they make sure the frags are dead and then claim it was due to a shipping delay. I know that sounds like a stretch and I don't know anyone that would do anything like that, but there are always people out there looking to abuse the system for their own gain. I see having that verbiage for DOA as a way to protect yourself from that kind of situation more so than as a way of backing out of any responsibility.

I was thrown off at first when I read some DOA policies from hobbyists, but after thinking about it there is alot of risk from both seller and buyer, so I get it. It's kind of just one of those fine print things that seems bad, but is rarely used.

 

[Rick.45cal]

This complaint just lends credence to why corals shipped by legitimate businesses are so much more expensive than ones bought from other hobbyists. You’re literally paying for the guarantee, the insurance, the proper packaging and the professionalism. I personally don’t sell any of my corals for this very reason, you have half the hobbyists who complain about prices are too expensive and the other half who think you should be liable for every aspect of the business. Several old adages come to mind “You don’t get to have your cake and eat it too”, “If a deal appears to be too good to be true, it probably is” and “let the buyer beware”.

Whether I agree with one side or the other is irrelevant as I personally choose not to take part in it for these very reasons.

There is also no way I would be shipping or buying livestock right now without seriously considering losing what I’ve put into it. I understand people running businesses don’t have that luxury but as a hobbyist consumer, I do. Expectations in an uncertain time only lead to disappointment in my experience.

 

[laverda]

The reality is that delays due to Covid-19 can be a big issue these days. I recently was sent a package overnight that was delayed a week. Thank goodness it was not fish. Every day it said it was on the truck for delivery each morning, only to later say delivery will be delayed one day. It even showed as delivered one day then delivery was delayed a day. When I called I was told that it never made it onto the truck for local delivery due to all the food orders getting priority.
I do not ship or buy corals or fish online for exactly this reason, but how it a delay like that the sellers responsibility. I think the loss should be shared by both parties in the case of private sellers.
I also think it is foolish to be ordering fish or corals if the weather in the area you live in is 100 degrees or extremely cold out. Have some patience and wait for cooler weather just Incase there is a shipping delay. If you really can’t wait have it heal at UPS or FedEx for pick up. That way you do not have to worry if it misses the truck due to food deliveries getting top priority. You can get it first think in the morning and it will not be in a hot truck for hours.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

The large carriers have their own planes. FedEx has the largest fleet in the world I do believe.

They have their own planes but are limited to the hubs they fly to and have to depend on delivery to smaller airports via the airlines or land transportation. They are taxed at this time due to their partial dependance on passenger airlines to fill the gaps. Given your statements I have to wonder if you are actually aware of how the spoke and hub system works? You may just be lucky as most customers happen to be located in the hub system due to population demographics. In other words most of the hobbiest live in the most populated areas of the world not the rural areas. This is why Aquarium stores do better in large metro areas due to larger customer demand.