Should a Propagated coral cost more?
- Thread starter Randy
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mevstheworld
Salt Creep
I understand it's not cheap for the initial setup, but once everything is in place and operational the costs would subside. If it is that ruff for you financially, then just like any other business that can't compete, close shop, or you could just move to another country, employ cheap sweat labor and have the financial freedom you desire. And yes there is plenty of greed floating around. I just bought a frag from a homegrown local for $25. I searched all over the net for this same piece and the cheapest I found was $75 for half the size of what I received.
reefboy
Valuable Member
are you in this business? operational cost don't subside you have a ever growing power bill you have additives replacement of parts lighting ext like I said unless your in this business you have no room to say anything about cost's and thats great you got a piece for 25.00 from a local person beings I don't know the frag you got hard to say what I would have charged but I'm betting this was a person who doesn't rely on it as his source of income or was a friend.All I'm saying is if your not in the business paying the bill's and know what it cost's you have no room to say that the average net business over charges and honestly if you did know you wouldn't be saying what your saying just like I wouldn't comment on what you do.There are greedy net companies out there but not all are most are just trying to make a living doing what they love and helping our reef's out a little at the same time to put us all in the same vague grouping is unfair and unwarranted as you have no clue of the cost or daily operational cost to monthly cost's so unless you do please keep your comments to constructive comments instead of hearsay.
iani
Valuable Member
This statement makes no sense. You are basically saying because you write things off it doesn't count as expenses? Sure you only pay taxes on your net profit, however if profits don't exceed expenses you don't make any money.
iani
Valuable Member
Think about it this way. When that once wild colony from where that frag you bought for 25 dollars came in, the colony probably sold for 25 dollars. I don't understand but who cares that you bought something for 25 that you couldn't find anywhere online for less than 75. You are comparing one captive frag to another, how does that have anything to do with captive coral being more expensive than wild coral?
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reefboy
Valuable Member
well said lol I wish I got that money back lol
dtpollard
Well-Known Member
I think I spend a lot of time on my prop. frags. From growing, Fragging, bagging, and shipping it certainly takes a lot of time. I think prop corals are worth more $. They have a higher survival rate, grow faster than wild caught, and did not come out of the ocean. One day soon you may only be able to get prop. corals. I bet the price will increase then.
revaltion131
Active Member
I wholly understand the reasons why a propogated coral should cost more; from the health of the coral to the work put into by the 'farmer'. But, I voted that no, they should cost less. Let's face it, people often buy livestock for their tanks based on how much it costs. Cheaper TR creatures, be it fish or otherwise, will get bought before the more expensive wild-caught specimens. Just a different point of view. I have no qualms paying $$$ for propogated corals, though. I also prefer buying and growing out frags to buying whole or mini colonies.
Ladipyg
Saltwater Diva
reefboy..it is no dig...you are right because you are not in this business to lose money. You have employees to pay, overhead, family to take care of and since it is your business you have a ton of "sweat equity" invested in the place. There is no doubt in my mind that you don't do this strictly for the money...you do it for the love of the hobby and probably for the thrill of getting a shipment in and discovering that special gem of a coral. Some corals are so slow growing even at top dollar, from a time investment you're probably just breaking even. You are on a scale that the average hobbyist with a frag rack stuck to the side of his tank can't even imagine...if we're landscaping and break off a piece, we'll sell it for a couple of bucks...you don't have that luxury. I admire you for what you do and the work ethic it takes to keep it running.
reefboy
Valuable Member
Thank you I appreciate those comments, I'm sorry those kind of comments get me riled up when the person has no facts backing it I wish it was less expensive and every coral lived that we try to grow and the ones that do well would all grow fast but reality is costs go up and down but mostly up lol, corals die and the most popular sellers usaly grow really slow lol I think I can speak for most online vendors that farm a certain amount of there stock that if we did this only for the money we be doing somthing else as im not by any means getting rich.
Burks
Toledo Reefer
You sure can't write it all off. Pretty sure there is a limit.
If that were true, my buddy wouldn't be having such a hard time with his shop.
TritonsGarden
Coral Farmer Wannabe
As a hobbist, I can afford to sell frags cheap. Any money I make is just used to offset the cost of the hobby. As a commercial grower, I cannot sell cheap frags or I would no longer be a commercial grower then all coral would have to be harvested from the ocean. To rely solely on the profits from coral as income requires a higher price. Try to run some numbers one day and see what its like. Just ask my tax accountant. We have an appointment with him in a couple of weeks. When he gets done adding all the income and subtracting all the expenses, he will lean back in his chair, take off his glasses, scratch his head and say "Now... tell me why are you in the coral business again?"
Jack
Jack
Alti
Community Member
I briefly scanned this thread and see alot of good points and alot of ignorance. I think one of the biggest issues that creates problems here is the actual term "aquacultured". This word has been abused to the point of rendering it meaningless. There are hundreds if not thousands of online and LFS's selling aquacultured corals and only a handful of self sustaining coral farms out there. The numbers dont add up. 95% or more of corals labels as aquacultured are nothing but wild corals repackaged. Its nothing more than an advertising ploy that stores use to prey on customers good intentions.
Willingness to pay more does not help. Willingness to anylize and criticize is what will really make the term "aquacultured" meaningful again and give value to true aquacultured specimens. If hobbiests continue to pay more money for obviously non-aquacultured goods nothing will change. There is no agency regulating the validity of aquacultured corals. The only people who can do that are the hobbiests themselves. While the novice hobbiest has no idea how to tell the difference between wild and farmed corals, im sure the majority of experienced reefers can. When you buy a coral as aquacultured and you can clearly see that it is nothing more than a chopped up wild colony, why is there not some type of outcry. If I paid more for a coral because it was supposedly aquacultured and recieved a wild frag how could I be happy with my order. Most stores know that if the color and size are good that no one will complain. As long as people tolerate this kind of behavior and expect prices to be the same as wild there will never be an advance in coral farming.
There is no question that a true aquacultured specimen cost a great deal more than wild corals. For example, our galaxea mini colonies are grown from single polyps into mini colonies 1"-2" across. We are now past chopping wild colonies down to single polyps and use our own broodstock to start new batches. The original mother colonies had to go through QT and a 3 month acclimation process before we even cut them. The frags were cut down into single polyps and allowed to grow for 6-10 months before being ready for sale. It then takes another few months for those corals to be sold. This translates into a minimum of 1-1.5 years of time invested before any money is recieved. As a commercial facility the expenses over the course of a year are astronomical. Maintaining thousands of gallons of salt water takes alot of manpower and expertise that cannot be purchased for minimum wage. The only way to make up for these costs is to produce large numbers of corals. When you have to produce these kinds of numbers to make money, you are forced to use huge ammounts of growing space for a limited ammount of species. This reduces the selection of corals you are able to offer for sale and commits you to an inventory that rarely changes. I have had the same corals listed for sale for years. To go through all of this and then have to compete with a vendor who buys a wild colony, chops it up the next day, labels it as aquacultured and sells it for a price competitive with wild corals really takes the wind out of my sails. IMO hobbiests should be more critical of what they buy and demand more for their money.
If you really believe in the aquaculture process and support farm raised corals there must be more support. Not only financially, but in terms of education. Making people understand and appreciate the difference is the only way that true aquaculture facilities will be able to survive. This is what these kinds of forums are for.
Growers should also provide more detailed info on their facilities and procedures for customers to see. Without some sort of evidence how are poeple supposed to understand the difference. Growth shots, pics of mother colonies, etc really can make a difference. For example:
Sorry for the long rant, but this is how I make my living and plan on sending my kids to college.
Willingness to pay more does not help. Willingness to anylize and criticize is what will really make the term "aquacultured" meaningful again and give value to true aquacultured specimens. If hobbiests continue to pay more money for obviously non-aquacultured goods nothing will change. There is no agency regulating the validity of aquacultured corals. The only people who can do that are the hobbiests themselves. While the novice hobbiest has no idea how to tell the difference between wild and farmed corals, im sure the majority of experienced reefers can. When you buy a coral as aquacultured and you can clearly see that it is nothing more than a chopped up wild colony, why is there not some type of outcry. If I paid more for a coral because it was supposedly aquacultured and recieved a wild frag how could I be happy with my order. Most stores know that if the color and size are good that no one will complain. As long as people tolerate this kind of behavior and expect prices to be the same as wild there will never be an advance in coral farming.
There is no question that a true aquacultured specimen cost a great deal more than wild corals. For example, our galaxea mini colonies are grown from single polyps into mini colonies 1"-2" across. We are now past chopping wild colonies down to single polyps and use our own broodstock to start new batches. The original mother colonies had to go through QT and a 3 month acclimation process before we even cut them. The frags were cut down into single polyps and allowed to grow for 6-10 months before being ready for sale. It then takes another few months for those corals to be sold. This translates into a minimum of 1-1.5 years of time invested before any money is recieved. As a commercial facility the expenses over the course of a year are astronomical. Maintaining thousands of gallons of salt water takes alot of manpower and expertise that cannot be purchased for minimum wage. The only way to make up for these costs is to produce large numbers of corals. When you have to produce these kinds of numbers to make money, you are forced to use huge ammounts of growing space for a limited ammount of species. This reduces the selection of corals you are able to offer for sale and commits you to an inventory that rarely changes. I have had the same corals listed for sale for years. To go through all of this and then have to compete with a vendor who buys a wild colony, chops it up the next day, labels it as aquacultured and sells it for a price competitive with wild corals really takes the wind out of my sails. IMO hobbiests should be more critical of what they buy and demand more for their money.
If you really believe in the aquaculture process and support farm raised corals there must be more support. Not only financially, but in terms of education. Making people understand and appreciate the difference is the only way that true aquaculture facilities will be able to survive. This is what these kinds of forums are for.
Growers should also provide more detailed info on their facilities and procedures for customers to see. Without some sort of evidence how are poeple supposed to understand the difference. Growth shots, pics of mother colonies, etc really can make a difference. For example:
Sorry for the long rant, but this is how I make my living and plan on sending my kids to college.
AquaWorldPSC
Well-Known Member
Impressive Alti
Great post Alti!
Unfortunately I do not think true aquaculture will get the deserved respect until wild collection is greatly reduced or banned.
To answer the thread title, yes aquaculture coral should cost more, and yes I'll pay the higher cost... as should anyone who truly loves and respects our natural reefs.
I fully agree with you... there's just no way to compete. I know of a couple "aquaculture facilities" that used to grow 80% + of their coral live stock, yet as of late have done a one-eighty and become a chop-shop.
Unfortunately I do not think true aquaculture will get the deserved respect until wild collection is greatly reduced or banned.
To answer the thread title, yes aquaculture coral should cost more, and yes I'll pay the higher cost... as should anyone who truly loves and respects our natural reefs.
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Yeah with a propagated coral you are getting a more viable animal (higher survival rate) that has already been proven to survive in captivity. As an added bonus propagated stuff is usually going to keep its colors much better. Wild-caught animals are always a gamble and survivability is distinctly lower, colors dont stay etc.
So +1 for propagated stuff IMO.....keep in mind though that getting wild caught stuff for broodstock is still a piece of most growers business plan though and every "aquaculturist" I know does at least a little of both. The model that many are using, just buying a wild colony that has potential, acclimating it to captivity for several months and then fragging it is one small step better for both the hobbyist and the environment however. It hits most of the advatages listed above to a lesser extent. And instead of the demand for the coral taking twenty colonies out of the wild, only one is taken for those twenty frags. Again, its nothing like the involved process that a true farmer is going through but its a shade better than taking those twenty colonies IMO. And as you noted Alti, its the stepping stone process to by which true aquaculture can happen.
What probably needs to happen for aquaculture to fully catch on is for either a) a ban on most imports or b) the price of those imports and/or freight to go through the roof. Probably neither of those things happening anytime soon so I doubt you'll see meaningful change in the way things work.
I for one will only buy hobbyist (or in-states) aquacultured Acropora. The wild caught stuff isnt worth its low price IME as survivabilty from ocean to home is still less than half.
Alti if you are already ahead of the curve thats great!
What probably needs to happen for aquaculture to fully catch on is for either a) a ban on most imports or b) the price of those imports and/or freight to go through the roof. Probably neither of those things happening anytime soon so I doubt you'll see meaningful change in the way things work.
I for one will only buy hobbyist (or in-states) aquacultured Acropora. The wild caught stuff isnt worth its low price IME as survivabilty from ocean to home is still less than half.
Alti if you are already ahead of the curve thats great!
memorisa
Community Member
I think the propagated ones may cost more, but in the initial stages to get the uneducated wild hunt and incredibly gruesome shipping methods of essentially dumping corals in bags without any protection and having a little over 60% survival rate, the propagated ones should cost less. just for the pure sake of discouraging wildcaught ones. at least thats the case in turkey. it sucks, we dont have people making a living off of fragging and aquaculturing and its mostly between hobbyists.
but the LFS boomed like weeds and they claim to import their own, where they are just ignorantly hurting the wild colonies by encouraging their asian partners to go out and collect like crazy.
but the LFS boomed like weeds and they claim to import their own, where they are just ignorantly hurting the wild colonies by encouraging their asian partners to go out and collect like crazy.
