Should I buy an Apex with Ecotech equipment?

[Yellow Coris Wrasse]

I'm setting up a new build on a waterbox 6025. I'm using Radion Gen5's, a Vectra M2, and two MP40's. All of these pieces of equipment work with Mobius and I have found the Mobius app to be very user friendly.

I am considering getting an Apex for monitoring and control. However, it appears the lights are no longer compatible with the Apex. And, everything can be controlled by the Mobius app. So, I would be using the Apex to monitor and control my skimmer, ATO, heater, and dosers (unless I buy Versa dosers).

Given that Mobius can handle most of the gear, should I buy an Apex? Is an Apex EL a better way to go? Thanks in advance for your advice.

 

[WIReefer]

I have the full apex, run 3 mp40, vectra m2. I like the control the apex still has for the other equipment like you stated. But I bet you would be fine with the el version.

 

[dwest]

I use ecotech pumps but never hooked them up to my apex. I’ve been reefing for about 25 years but only an apex user for 2. I would get an apex for monitoring and heater control. But it’s easy for me to spend your money

 

[SuncrestReef]

Will you want to coordinate your pumps and/or powerheads during a feed mode? The Apex can still control On/Off of those devices even if you're controlling speeds or schedules through Mobius. To me the main value of the Apex is the ability to monitor and receive alerts about problems quickly, such as temperature, pH, leak sensors, water level sensors, flow sensors, power outages, skimmer full, dosing reservoir low, etc.

If you choose to get an Apex, be sure to read my 8-part Apex Programming Tutorial series.

 

[robbyg]

If your away from home for long periods of the day it's nice to have both systems. You can use any controller for handling the heaters and giving you pH and Salinity readings as well as watching out and alerting you to leaks. The Mobius can deal with Lighting, Pumps and Dosing. I guess as time passes and Mobius controls more hardware and has better software you could phase out the controller.

 

[Yellow Coris Wrasse]

Thanks for the input, I think I'll purchase an Apex. So, what are the pros and cons of the Apex EL and the full Apex. As best I can tell, you lose the ORP, Salinity, and 0-10v capability by going down to the EL. Please check my thinking on each of these:

Salinity monitoring catches an ATO issue - I'm not worried about salinity; my Tunze ATO feeds to a tower and cannot siphon. The pump would have to fail in the on position to adjust the salinity, which seems unlikely.

ORP catches if something dies in the tank (???)- I guess this would be helpful to know. Are there other uses of the ORP probe?

0-10v control - Do I need 0-10v control if lights, return pump, power heads, and dosers are all on Mobius? What else would you hook up with a 0-10v control? I guess I could connect my skimmer to 0-10v control, but it is a Reef Octopus with a Varios DC pump. That seems silly to me.

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[BlennyTime]

I really wouldn’t trust Apex to run critical parts of your tank. Just this morning, there was someone on here who almost lost their tank because it randomly malfunctioned for no reason. The reviews are filled with similar stories.

If you want to have one,I’d have it for monitoring only or at minimum have a power head outside of the system that can keep things running.

 

[robbyg]

Thanks for the input, I think I'll purchase an Apex. So, what are the pros and cons of the Apex EL and the full Apex. As best I can tell, you lose the ORP, Salinity, and 0-10v capability by going down to the EL. Please check my thinking on each of these:

Salinity monitoring catches an ATO issue - I'm not worried about salinity; my Tunze ATO feeds to a tower and cannot siphon. The pump would have to fail in the on position to adjust the salinity, which seems unlikely.

ORP catches if something dies in the tank (???)- I guess this would be helpful to know. Are there other uses of the ORP probe?

0-10v control - Do I need 0-10v control if lights, return pump, power heads, and dosers are all on Mobius? What else would you hook up with a 0-10v control? I guess I could connect my skimmer to 0-10v control, but it is a Reef Octopus with a Varios DC pump. That seems silly to me.

Thanks in advance for your input.

I have to agree with @BlennyTime in that the Apex would not be my first choice if you plan to leave the tank unattended for long periods of time. If your home most of the day then it is fine as you will be there to catch any issues but if your away at work for 10 hours per day or travel a lot I would get a GHL controller as IMHO it is a lot more reliable.

The Salinty Probe with the Apex is not worth the trouble as it is known to drift all over the place. ORP in general is not all that useful unless you run Ozone or use a Sulfur reactor. If you do decide to get the Apex just get the EL version.

 

[User1]

So here is the deal - just to clear a bit of misconception. Apex is perfectly fine managing a system unattended to include trans Pacific and trans Atlantic oceans. I'll lay down another misconception in that the GHL will also do the same. They both work. I can't vouch for it because I do not run one but there are plenty of hobbyists do. I've traveled and my tank was fine. It didn't care that an apex was watching it or my dog.

I'm not going to get into insert your favorite contest here but one really isn't better than the other because that isn't really factual but rather biased and opinionated. One has a presumed bigger user base in the US while the other has one in EMEA. Other than that you more often than not will read what isn't working or currently frustrating users compared to people posting golden bombs of light and love...just how social media works.

With that out of the way @Marina 34217 you asked a rather interesting question. Should you buy a controller of X brand when most if not all of your equipment has inter connectivity and app coverage. I like it I must say. Smart. Honestly, I don't know. I do not use it so can't comment on it but if the application lets you do a majority of what you want then the short answer is no. I wouldn't waste the money should the app let you do what you need. Feed modes, lighting control, pump adjustment. On the other hand I would recommend this if you haven't:

1. Make a list of what you would like to do today, and tomorrow (future)
2. Monitor / heart beat (reach back ping (water leak, circuit breaker trip, or simple network outage)
3. Automated testing (GHL down the road, Trident today, others)
4. Custom lighting profiles
5. Fancy feed modes
6. Automated water changes
7. Dosing

Ignore the brand of the controller for a minute but rather see what your vision is. It may help answer the question. I think the inter connectivity is a interesting idea. In my case I'm already invested in a controller so it wouldn't be something I would consider. But as I said I think it is smart. As is what other plans you may have in store.

For the record I use Apex but have been a long time Neptune customer. However, I do try and remove my bias hat when I answer questions like these. Controllers help and can do some amazing things but they are not critical pieces of equipment for a successful reef. They are a tool to use. And what is more important than the controller is designing your system with some redundancy in case the brown stuff does hit the whirl thing. Be it a return pump or controller batter back up or even as simple as a reach back heart beat notification (search on BRStv 165 I think it was, their tank failed due to a circuit breaker and not having the Apex heartbeat enabled that would have saved it).

Hope this helps. Great question.

 

[BlennyTime]

So here is the deal - just to clear a bit of misconception. Apex is perfectly fine managing a system unattended to include trans Pacific and trans Atlantic oceans. I'll lay down another misconception in that the GHL will also do the same. They both work. I can't vouch for it because I do not run one but there are plenty of hobbyists do. I've traveled and my tank was fine. It didn't care that an apex was watching it or my dog.

I'm not going to get into insert your favorite contest here but one really isn't better than the other because that isn't really factual but rather biased and opinionated. One has a presumed bigger user base in the US while the other has one in EMEA. Other than that you more often than not will read what isn't working or currently frustrating users compared to people posting golden bombs of light and love...just how social media works.

With that out of the way @Marina 34217 you asked a rather interesting question. Should you buy a controller of X brand when most if not all of your equipment has inter connectivity and app coverage. I like it I must say. Smart. Honestly, I don't know. I do not use it so can't comment on it but if the application lets you do a majority of what you want then the short answer is no. I wouldn't waste the money should the app let you do what you need. Feed modes, lighting control, pump adjustment. On the other hand I would recommend this if you haven't:

1. Make a list of what you would like to do today, and tomorrow (future)
2. Monitor / heart beat (reach back ping (water leak, circuit breaker trip, or simple network outage)
3. Automated testing (GHL down the road, Trident today, others)
4. Custom lighting profiles
5. Fancy feed modes
6. Automated water changes
7. Dosing

Ignore the brand of the controller for a minute but rather see what your vision is. It may help answer the question. I think the inter connectivity is a interesting idea. In my case I'm already invested in a controller so it wouldn't be something I would consider. But as I said I think it is smart. As is what other plans you may have in store.

For the record I use Apex but have been a long time Neptune customer. However, I do try and remove my bias hat when I answer questions like these. Controllers help and can do some amazing things but they are not critical pieces of equipment for a successful reef. They are a tool to use. And what is more important than the controller is designing your system with some redundancy in case the brown stuff does hit the whirl thing. Be it a return pump or controller batter back up or even as simple as a reach back heart beat notification (search on BRStv 165 I think it was, their tank failed due to a circuit breaker and not having the Apex heartbeat enabled that would have saved it).

Hope this helps. Great question.

I agree in general that Apex (or any other system) can be a useful tool. However, if you are completely reliant on it (as many people are in their setups) it can become a single point of failure.

Just pointing out that people should be prepared for that failure, whether it happens in a week or runs flawlessly for years.

 

[User1]

I agree in general that Apex (or any other system) can be a useful tool. However, if you are completely reliant on it (as many people are in their setups) it can become a single point of failure.

Just pointing out that people should be prepared for that failure, whether it happens in a week or runs flawlessly for years.

Without splitting hairs or arguing semantics that is why I noted redundancy. Base tank and with controllers to include humans. Often overlooked in the design of the system be it new or upgrading.

In any case I was just trying to remove controllers from the equation and knock it down to their vision. It will help answer the question I feel. If not - all good.

 

[robbyg]

So here is the deal - just to clear a bit of misconception. Apex is perfectly fine managing a system unattended to include trans Pacific and trans Atlantic oceans. I'll lay down another misconception in that the GHL will also do the same. They both work. I can't vouch for it because I do not run one but there are plenty of hobbyists do. I've traveled and my tank was fine. It didn't care that an apex was watching it or my dog.

I don't agree with you on this one. It's not a misconception, it's an engineering design flaw!
Using the same 24V supply that runs the whole system including the CPU and then letting it be available for use to run external devices such a power heads etc. leaves the whole system at the mercy of whatever is plugged into the 1link ports. It's a wide open single failure point that can be accessed by numerous pieces of hardware including ones made by Neptune or third parties or DIY devices.

Luckily it can be overcome by using the separate 12V line to the CPU unit but this is not how Neptune markets the system to be hooked up and I would imagine only a small percentage of owners have it hooked up this way since there is no adapter in the box. Also it's not going to save the Power Bar from going down. They should have just built a 12V supply into the powerbar and then had a 24V input line that could be powered by a separate brick. That way worst case scenario is that the 24V brick gets fried but the rest of your system is sill running. Plus it would be a lot easier to buy a new brick than to have to send back your whole powerbar.

GHL certainly has enough space in their Power Bars to fit a DC power supply system that could power the controller and even 24V accessories but they realized this would be an engineering mistake and made sure they kept the CPU power separate.

Remember those first generation USB equipped PC's?
If you plugged a device in that shorted the USB port or used to much current the whole Mobo would often just burn out. Later models used a properly fused design that just killed the one port.

 

[DWill]

I love my Apex. There’s a huge learning curve with Apex and there’s not a lot of useful info to help with that learning curve directly from Neptune. Though my experience has been very positive working with Neptune when you have a problem, they responded very quickly and resolve whatever issue you have efficiently and quickly. Excellent service in that regard.

The saving grace for the Apex learning curve is the community. There a great group of people in the community that will answer question and jump in and help you. It would be difficult, really difficult without the Apex communit.

You can’t go wrong with Apex. My suggestion is if you go with Apex go with the full version you‘ll end up adding the extra modules anyway.

I also own Ecotech and run Mobious. The learning curve with is much more shallow. I also enjoy having my lights and pumps running on a seperate system. If I lose the Apex for some reason (Ive not had a single glitch in three months) I don’t lose my lights and pumps. I run a Bayite temp controller on my Apex so its a simple matter of plugging that into the wall to control temp if something happens with Apex.

Gor me the redundancy of two systems works.

The only drawback, and it’s actually, at least for me pretty big, but l can live with it; Mobious is Bluetooth only. There’s no cloud, if you want or need to adjust something and your away from where your tank is your out of luck. That for more ruled out versatec dosing pumps. The only thing I can do is turn my Ecotech gear on and off thru my Apex. i monitor water levels with optical sensors and that gives me some peace of mind that I can at least control the power to my pumps should something go wrong.

 

[GillMeister]

I'm going to agree and disagree all at once. From my very real and personal experience I can say the Apex is about the most comprehensive and useful piece of equipment for marine aquaria today. That also makes us want to rely on this useful tech for everything. That said, if you do rely on it for every function in your tank you do risk everything if it fails. Happened to me yesterday. I wasn't happy. I vented a little. But, I can act like an adult again today so I feel like I have some great advice.

Build some redundancies into key parts of your system or pay the price later. When your Apex fails, and like all things it eventually will, the redundancies will save your livestock. Alert Neptune about the failure and I know they'll address design flaws now or for future generations. It's in our best interest for these companies to be successful and they can only get better when they know what problems need fixing.

 

[BlennyTime]

I'm going to agree and disagree all at once. From my very real and personal experience I can say the Apex is about the most comprehensive and useful piece of equipment for marine aquaria today. That also makes us want to rely on this useful tech for everything. That said, if you do rely on it for every function in your tank you do risk everything if it fails. Happened to me yesterday. I wasn't happy. I vented a little. But, I can act like an adult again today so I feel like I have some great advice.

Build some redundancies into key parts of your system or pay the price later. When your Apex fails, and like all things it eventually will, the redundancies will save your livestock. Alert Neptune about the failure and I know they'll address design flaws now or for future generations. It's in our best interest for these companies to be successful and they can only get better when they know what problems need fixing.

Exactly! Planning and preparation is key to everything in this hobby. Something is going to go wrong at some point regardless of how well your system is set up, and the more prepared you are to handle it the better chance of things working out in the end.