Should I get a larger skimmer?

[Potatohead]

So, my tank is doing fairly well but I have been battling some hair algae and some cyano for a long time now. I have about 68 gallons of water volume and for the past 18 months have been running an Eshopps S-120 (the latest one), which I do like, I just wonder if it’s too small.

My nitrate hovers around 15 and phosphate stays low around .02, but I would imagine a lot is being used up by some algae. I do get periods of die back on the hair algae but that then seems to feed the cyano. I have been doing 10-12% water changes every 5-7 days to try and keep the upper hand on it. I also have a chaeto fuge that grows like mad, it doubles in size every 2-3 weeks, I pull a volleyball sized chunk out in that same time frame. I only feed about 1/3 cube per day and maybe another small amount of flake or pellets. I also run a small amount of phosguard in a bag.

Part of me says the corals are doing well, just leave it, let them grow and add some more coral, let the coralline grow more and eventually this will outcompete the bad stuff - But that could take a year or more.

I am starting to wonder if going to a larger body skimmer is something I should consider doing? Or will it not help that much?

Thanks

 

[Swoody]

Not sure what your current one is rated at but....get something that is "mfr. rated" for at least twice your system volume maybe 2.5 x. This gives you room to grow (bio load wise) and you can run without it if necessary to increase nutrients.

 

[Potatohead]

They rate it to 120g light load and 40 gallons heavy. I would say I am medium heavy, I have seven smallish fish. It is a physically pretty small skimmer (which was part of the appeal of it in the first place).

 

[Wiskey]

I've found that a skimmer is only one piece of the puzzle. It removes bacteria, which use nutrients to grow, but certain things can limit bacteria growth which limit the skimmer's effectiveness. Bacteria can only grow so fast, and it uses lots of other trace elements to do so, any one could be limiting.

You could use something like GFO to attack the PO4 directly. My best advice is don't overdo it. It's easy to shock corals with suddenly dropping PO4 levels.

One key point is that Live rock can harbor detritus, it's important to blast it off with a powerhead regularly to prevent build-up of bacterial flock which can feed algae. Once established it will trap this flock at its base and feed on it. So when fighting algae it's important to do this as often as twice a week. I do it about every month without algae problems.

Finally, there is feeding to consider. Foods like reef roids are loaded with nutrients and are designed for chronically low nutrient tanks. If you are using any of these powder or liquid coral foods I would stop while you are fighting nutrient issues.

In short, that's pretty good skimmer, and if your tank is 90G or under and your fish load is normal I don't think it's the source of your problem.

Whiskey

 

[mitch91175]

So, my tank is doing fairly well but I have been battling some hair algae and some cyano for a long time now. I have about 68 gallons of water volume and for the past 18 months have been running an Eshopps S-120 (the latest one), which I do like, I just wonder if it’s too small.

My nitrate hovers around 15 and phosphate stays low around .02, but I would imagine a lot is being used up by some algae. I do get periods of die back on the hair algae but that then seems to feed the cyano. I have been doing 10-12% water changes every 5-7 days to try and keep the upper hand on it. I also have a chaeto fuge that grows like mad, it doubles in size every 2-3 weeks, I pull a volleyball sized chunk out in that same time frame. I only feed about 1/3 cube per day and maybe another small amount of flake or pellets. I also run a small amount of phosguard in a bag.

Part of me says the corals are doing well, just leave it, let them grow and add some more coral, let the coralline grow more and eventually this will outcompete the bad stuff - But that could take a year or more.

I am starting to wonder if going to a larger body skimmer is something I should consider doing? Or will it not help that much?

Thanks

I would say definitely not to overreact and just leave it alone. Depending on how long the tank has been setup, you may still be going through the ugly stages somewhat. Also, changing 10-12% every 5 days I personally feel will not do you any good and may also add to the problem as well. Unless you are testing your new saltwater for phosphates you could possibly be just adding in more phosphates through your water change and not even knowing it.

I do not think that the skimmer is the issue either, but having a good skimmer is only part of it like others have mentioned. You didn't mention anything about if you have any snails and/or tangs to try to help with the algae outbreak. Another option is to dose carbon or GFO like someone else mentioned.

Also do you have a sandbed? Is it being stirred? I recently removed my sandbed (not for nutrient concerns, but helped keep nutrients in check without it). One of the best decisions I have made in my 15+ years of reefing. It is no longer my limiting factor for whatever I want to do with my reef.

 

[Potatohead]

I would say definitely not to overreact and just leave it alone. Depending on how long the tank has been setup, you may still be going through the ugly stages somewhat. Also, changing 10-12% every 5 days I personally feel will not do you any good and may also add to the problem as well. Unless you are testing your new saltwater for phosphates you could possibly be just adding in more phosphates through your water change and not even knowing it.

I do not think that the skimmer is the issue either, but having a good skimmer is only part of it like others have mentioned. You didn't mention anything about if you have any snails and/or tangs to try to help with the algae outbreak. Another option is to dose carbon or GFO like someone else mentioned.

Also do you have a sandbed? Is it being stirred? I recently removed my sandbed (not for nutrient concerns, but helped keep nutrients in check without it). One of the best decisions I have made in my 15+ years of reefing. It is no longer my limiting factor for whatever I want to do with my reef.

The tank is about 19 months old, the rock was in a previous tank for about nine months prior also. It was dry rock and I think that is part of where the issue got started. As stated in the OP I use some Phosguard in a bag in a sump baffle, I have used a reactor in the past and I still have it but then it drives the PO4 way down and my corals really suffer. They are doing well now so I would rather just ride it out.

I have some Nassarius, Trochus, Cerith snails as well as some hermits (about five or six of each) I also have a yellow Tang and a six spot Goby. The tang definitely helps, the Goby helped a lot at first but he has been slacking a bit the past few months. I wasn't stirring the sand bed for a while because the Goby was doing it but I started again a little while ago.

I think part of my issue is I have a lot of light, an eight bulb Sunpower, and my corals are still smaller (mainly acros), and I don't have that many really. I want to give them space to grow and not go too fast, but at the same time I still have a lot of space for new ones. So I think I will probably just continue along and hopefully in time it will get better. I have also had some more rock curing for about 2.5 months now and will probably put most of that in my sump in the coming weeks. I don't know if that will help or not but I don't have a ton of rock in the tank itself, about 30-35 lbs.

 

[mcarroll]

My nitrate hovers around 15 and phosphate stays low around .02, but I would imagine a lot is being used up by some algae.

Phosphate limitation could be happening, which might be slowing the maturation process in your display....let it come up to at least 0.03 ppm. 0.05 wouldn't be too high.

If the display weren't having to compete with the macro algae in the refugium so hard it might go faster. So smaller ball of chaeto, maybe with a little less light?

Part of me says the corals are doing well, just leave it, let them grow and add some more coral, let the coralline grow more and eventually this will outcompete the bad stuff - But that could take a year or more.

There's a good chance your CUC is too small or otherwise limited if you feel like you're doing too much hand-work. What do you have right now?

I am starting to wonder if going to a larger body skimmer is something I should consider doing? Or will it not help that much?

No reason to switch for this.

If your skimmer is even close to the right size for the tank, it's fine.

Also, how old is this tank and was it started with dry rock?

 

[mcarroll]

Removing other drains on PO4 besides the refugium would also be fine....say if you're using GFO or simiar.

 

[roberthu526]

One thing I learned is never trust the ratings given by the manufacturer. Always go as big as you can. My current display is 125g plus a 30g sump. Initially I got a reef octopus skimmer rated for 150g thinking it would be enough. But it wasn’t even close cause I overstocked my tank like most of use do. My current skimmer is also a reef octopus but rated for 250g. And it is just keeping up with my carbon dosing. So I would strongly suggest go bigger.

 

[Potatohead]

Phosphate limitation could be happening, which might be slowing the maturation process in your display....let it come up to at least 0.03 ppm. 0.05 wouldn't be too high.

If the display weren't having to compete with the macro algae in the refugium so hard it might go faster. So smaller ball of chaeto, maybe with a little less light?



There's a good chance your CUC is too small or otherwise limited if you feel like you're doing too much hand-work. What do you have right now?



No reason to switch for this.

If your skimmer is even close to the right size for the tank, it's fine.

Also, how old is this tank and was it started with dry rock?

Most I answered just before your reply.

I also thought phosphate limitation so I pulled the Phosguard for a while but things just seemed to get worse in the display, much more cyano growth, so I put a small amount back in. Same when I trim the chaeto, the following day or two in the display you can see the difference.

Now I should mention up until about a month ago things were going really well. There was still some slight algae but the tang kept it at bay mostly, but in the last three to four weeks I have been getting little bits of red cyano on the sand and green cyano on the rockwork. It has been very slowly getting worse, but it's not terrible. I think what happens is I have visible recession in the hair algae, which feeds the cyano. About six months ago I decided to switch the tank from carbon dosing to a refugium, and the die back of algae at that time was significant, as was the cyano. It slowly got better for a while, but hair algae was mostly stagnant. Lately it has been dying back again, maybe the tank is becoming phosphate limited but the chaeto still grows like a weed. It's just a theory but I think the higher organics in the water from dying algae is fuelling the cyano, which is why I thought a bigger skimmer might be a good thing.

 

[mcarroll]

Cyano will show up whenever nutrients in the system become unstable. They soak up "leftovers" exceedingly well – partly because they're really good at getting to available N and P sources which are needed to make use of most leftovers in a low-nutrient system. (Could be called a cyano-friendly system, but then who'd use it?!?!)

Keep nutrients stable (especially N and P) and you'll grow everything BUT cyano – which is your actual goal.

Yes you have to weed out the algae, but that's time + help from CUC.

 

[Potatohead]

Cyano will show up whenever nutrients in the system become unstable. They soak up "leftovers" exceedingly well – partly because they're really good at getting to available N and P sources which are needed to make use of most leftovers in a low-nutrient system. (Could be called a cyano-friendly system, but then who'd use it?!?!)

Keep nutrients stable (especially N and P) and you'll grow everything BUT cyano – which is your actual goal.

Yes you have to weed out the algae, but that's time + help from CUC.

What can I do? It seems if I try to raise PO4 by removing Phosguard I get more cyano, unless that was just coincidence. I removed it on Sunday just to see and by Wednesday (yesterday) I put it back in because there was about 30-50% more. My chaeto ball right now is pretty huge, I could cut that back and continue to run the phosguard if that might help.

There is no doubt when things were better cyano wise I had higher phosphate (about .03-.05 BUT I also had nitrate in the 8-10 range. Now they are farther apart which I thought for sure was phosphate limitation. I haven't added any fish or anything in a while. Should I try feeding phosphate rich foods a bit more?

 

[mcarroll]

Algae react fast....the tank reacts slowly.

When you move too quickly you are playing to the algae's strengths. When you keep things steady and move slowly you're playing to the coral in the tank.

You have to let the effects of nutrient changes play out for at least a few weeks to see the final state of those changes.

Also, sometimes, like when going from no-nutrient to pro-nutrient, algae gets worse before it gets better.

Keep up with changes you observe in algae growth manually as you have been...make sure you are getting proper support from your CUC when needed....keep up with N and P testing so you can maintain adequate, stable levels.

More than likely you'll need to ditch or at least scale back the nutrient controls currently on the tank, pick up some bottles of PO4 and NO3 and maintain levels that way.

I would not overfeed – just feed the fish the best you are able to, and in the correct proportion for them.

Ultimately cyano will give way. Maybe to green algae. Even this represents progress and just means it'll take a little longer, so keep up with your efforts.

Eventually coraline algae will encrust your rock and in the doing will take away more and more real estate from "pest algae".

 

[Potatohead]

Ok, update:

After the last few posts a few days ago I pulled the Phosguard and turned the fuge light down from 16 hours to 14. I also pulled about 40% of the chaeto out, which I do every 2-3 weeks anyway. I am still seeing a definite reduction in hair algae, but cyano still fairly prevalent. SPS corals are still doing ok, my alk consumption has remained the same, maybe very slightly less polyp extension on a few of them. Acans and zoas definitely not opening as much.

I tested nitrate and phosphate tonight, nitrate has crept up into the 25 range and I only got 4 on the Hanna ULR. I think it is somewhat obvious my tank is low on phosphate. I can also go about twice as long between glass cleanings as a couple months ago. I don’t really want to keep turning the fuge light down, because of the ph benefit and because it probably pulls some nitrate out too... I think I’d rather try dosing phosphate. I should probably wait another week and see what happens but for $4 for some TSP dosing .02 or so a day probably won’t hurt and see where that takes me.

 

[mcarroll]

ph benefit

I know we read about this, but it's one I question. I think "benefit" was decided without looking at the whole picture or considering the avg reefer. There are very few decisions where I'd let pH have much weight – do what you feel is right, even if it's in spite of pH.

That said, I agree about dosing phosphates. You might do best to target a little higher at ≥0.03 ppm of PO4.

 

[Retro Reefer]

I have some Nassarius, Trochus, Cerith snails as well as some hermits (about five or six of each)

Need a lot more CUC.. I would put at least 1-2 snails per gallon based on tank size not total volume, so if you have a 50 gallon you need 50-100 snails

 

[DesertReefT4r]

Need a lot more CUC.. I would put at least 1-2 snails per gallon based on tank size not total volume, so if you have a 50 gallon you need 50-100 snails

Thats crazy. Yeah 50-100 to wipe the algae out then remove 70% of the snails. Long term that many snails will slowly starve once they eat all the aglae. That many snails is also pricey, your talking $100+ in snails. There is also no garranty they will even eat the algae you want to get rid of.

 

[Retro Reefer]

Thats crazy. Yeah 50-100 to wipe the algae out then remove 70% of the snails. Long term that many snails will slowly starve once they eat all the aglae. That many snails is also pricey, your talking $100+ in snails. There is also no garranty they will even eat the algae you want to get rid of.

Enjoy your algae

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