Should I practice ich management?

[Kzang]

Ich vs ich management.... So I went 2 weeks copper power at 2.1. Transferred to sterile qt. And blue tang shows ich two days later.

Should I keep at it or just put back on my display.

I don't know if I care to qt every coral, snail, and etc that could potentially have ich.

Im having to qt 3 tangs, 2 wrasses, and 2 clowns which is a pain. I hate to do all this then get ich bc it hitch hikes on a coral. Any thoughts?

 

[Gareth elliott]

Will tag @Paul B as he’s the guru here.

I will state that Coral pests can be much more difficult to eradicate once they enter a system than fish ones. Fish do have an advanced immune system that can(with lots of care, attention and time) eventually fight off parasites, of course this is a CAN not will.

This also requires careful attention to what fish you can keep. Stressed fish become ill, and that tank full of aggressive tangs may seem perfectly healthy, but something as small as a heater failing off for a day maybe enough for the most picked on fish to succumb to the parasites that it previously fought off.
Also in how we start tanks now with dead rock, bottled bacteria, a brand new tank may not be the best place to start with a Ich management tank.

 

[Kzang]

Will tag @Paul B as he’s the guru here.

I will state that Coral pests can be much more difficult to eradicate once they enter a system than fish ones. Fish do have an advanced immune system that can(with lots of care, attention and time) eventually fight off parasites, of course this is a CAN not will.

This also requires careful attention to what fish you can keep. Stressed fish become ill, and that tank full of aggressive tangs may seem perfectly healthy, but something as small as a heater failing off for a day maybe enough for the most picked on fish to succumb to the parasites that it previously fought off.
Also in how we start tanks now with dead rock, bottled bacteria, a brand new tank may not be the best place to start with a Ich management tank.

It's not a new tank. I've practiced ttm with all my fish. I think it came on a torch.

I don't want to have to qt a seperate system for corals and inverts to prevent ich again.

Would it just be better to live with it? I don't mind QTing fish, but QTing anything wet seems awful and time consuming.

Prior to taking them out, they were "ich free" visually. I do hate seeing stuff search every once in a while.

I have sand burrowing wrasses. And somehow the ich lived in 2.1 copper checked everyday

 

[sharpimage]

I tried ich management on my last system. I couldn't add any fish as they would die shortly thereafter. I eventually pulled it all apart and QT, fallow period etc. I have been happier since. I have a coral qt that is always running. It is just a 20 long. Nothing in there looks great but I just need it to live for about a month ad then I toss it in.

 

[TerraFerma]

You can run copper power at 2.5 without any issues. Do another round at 2.5. I don't understand why people run below 2.5 when the instructions say target 2.5.

 

[Kzang]

You can run copper power at 2.5 without any issues. Do another round at 2.5. I don't understand why people run below 2.5 when the instructions say target 2.5.

I have two wrasses. Humblefish says 2

 

[piranhaman00]

You can run copper power at 2.5 without any issues. Do another round at 2.5. I don't understand why people run below 2.5 when the instructions say target 2.5.

Because 1.75 - 2.0 is sufficient and any less stress on fish is ideal. But yes in this case you are correct, you are going to need to try 2.5.

But dont just put the tank in the DT lol that would be a huge mistake.

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Obviously ich prevention is the way too go, I don't think anyone would argue that. That being said I have practiced ich management for quite a while. Most of the fish I keep are hardy and have never had an issue. The only one that ever shows ich is my powder blue tang (about once a year), but he's always healthy and eating like a pig so the symptoms don't last long. I suppose what I'm saying is that in a WELL ESTABLISHED, healthy tank it can be done.

 

[TerraFerma]

Because 1.75 - 2.0 is sufficient and any less stress on fish is ideal. But yes in this case you are correct, you are going to need to try 2.5.

But dont just put the tank in the DT lol that would be a huge mistake.

Whats your stressful on the fish? Running X weeks at 2.1 and another X weeks at 2.5? Or just doing X weeks at 2.5

If you have a fish with a known copper sensitivity you should be running chloroquine Phosphate.

Blue tang is not known to have sensitivity to copper.

 

[Paul B]

Being that you already started quarantining and using copper, I think thats the route you should go now.
IMO quarantine and copper damages fish for life or close to it so those fish may never be healthy enough to have a good immune system to ward off ich or anything else.

To have an Ich Management tank, or what I like to call a "Natural, Healthy, Normal" tank, the fish need to be in great shape with an intact immune system that they all have in the sea. Copper and all medications short circuit that system and it takes a long time for the fish to recover.

I have always felt that quarantined or medicated fish are not whole fish as they lack a functioning immune system so they are always susceptible to virtually everything which is why we have disease forums.

 

[Kzang]

Being that you already started quarantining and using copper, I think thats the route you should go now.
IMO quarantine and copper damages fish for life or close to it so those fish may never be healthy enough to have a good immune system to ward off ich or anything else.

To have an Ich Management tank, or what I like to call a "Natural, Healthy, Normal" tank, the fish need to be in great shape with an intact immune system that they all have in the sea. Copper and all medications short circuit that system and it takes a long time for the fish to recover.

I have always felt that quarantined or medicated fish are not whole fish as they lack a functioning immune system so they are always susceptible to virtually everything which is why we have disease forums.

You still say qt with copper again even if I don't plan on QTing anything wet like inverts and corals to my DT?

 

[ZoWhat]

After losing $1000+ of Tangs to ICH... I was told to buy an African Cleaner Wrasse . Havent lost a single fish to ICH since.

Now you'll get naysayers saying this Wrasse doesn't eat the ICH parasite and only eats dead scales off the fish... Idk man... strange how I would lose 1-3 tangs a year for 10 years straight... then after this addition, not one loss.

This cleaner MUST MUST MUST come from African and be marketed as an African Cleaner Wrasse

 

[Paul B]

You still say qt with copper again even if I don't plan on QTing anything wet like inverts and corals to my DT?

Kzang, as you may have figured out, I am totally against quarantining. I have written extensively on my reasons and even wrote a book. I also have the oldest tank and maybe the oldest healthy, spawning fish on here. There is a reason for that and it is the same reason I have never had to post on a disease forum since way before they invented forums.

But I think if you want to go for a normal, healthy tank without any quarantine, you need to get those fish healthy.
That would mean you would have to eliminate all medications put the fish in with other "normal" , not quarantined fish and feed what I consider the only real fish diet that can keep your fish living long enough to only die of old age.

That diet is food with living bacteria like frozen, or better, fresh or "freshly" frozen (in your freezer) food, like clams.
Live worms would be even better. No dry food. Not even if you put garlic or Selcon on it.
(By the way, don't do that)

Your ich infected fish are now starting the process to become immune because ich will keep up their immunity depending on how long you have been medicating. It is not the same with every fish or every dose of medication.

I personally would put those fish into your tank and feed what I said. They may die, I don't know. Sometimes people die after a hospital stay, it depends on what condition they are in and I can't see your fish from here.

But remember, virtually all fish in the sea have ich. They swim with it, breath it and eat it at every meal. It is normal and the fish were meant to do that.
Fish are perfectly able to fend it off as that is what they were designed to do. If we eliminate that, we will end up at some time on the disease forum. Don't believe me. Go there and see how many quarantined fish died from either ich or quarantine.

My fish don't die. But they need to maintain the health and vigor they had in the sea. Only the correct food and contact with normal diseases will do that.
It is very easy but you can't short cut it by trying to medicate. It doesn't work. You have to pick one method or another.

If you go with quarantine, contact Humblefish as he is the Quarantine, medication Guru. (And a friend of mine. )

Read this thread

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

After losing $1000+ of Tangs to ICH... I was told to buy an African Cleaner Wrasse . Havent lost a single fish to ICH since.

I won't comment on this. If you want to go this route, that is your choice.

 

[Kzang]

Kzang, as you may have figured out, I am totally against quarantining. I have written extensively on my reasons and even wrote a book. I also have the oldest tank and maybe the oldest healthy, spawning fish on here. There is a reason for that and it is the same reason I have never had to post on a disease forum since way before they invented forums.

But I think if you want to go for a normal, healthy tank without any quarantine, you need to get those fish healthy.
That would mean you would have to eliminate all medications put the fish in with other "normal" , not quarantined fish and feed what I consider the only real fish diet that can keep your fish living long enough to only die of old age.

That diet is food with living bacteria like frozen, or better, fresh or "freshly" frozen (in your freezer) food, like clams.
Live worms would be even better. No dry food. Not even if you put garlic or Selcon on it.
(By the way, don't do that)

Your ich infected fish are now starting the process to become immune because ich will keep up their immunity depending on how long you have been medicating. It is not the same with every fish or every dose of medication.

I personally would put those fish into your tank and feed what I said. They may die, I don't know. Sometimes people die after a hospital stay, it depends on what condition they are in and I can't see your fish from here.

But remember, virtually all fish in the sea have ich. They swim with it, breath it and eat it at every meal. It is normal and the fish were meant to do that.
Fish are perfectly able to fend it off as that is what they were designed to do. If we eliminate that, we will end up at some time on the disease forum. Don't believe me. Go there and see how many quarantined fish died from either ich or quarantine.

My fish don't die. But they need to maintain the health and vigor they had in the sea. Only the correct food and contact with normal diseases will do that.
It is very easy but you can't short cut it by trying to medicate. It doesn't work. You have to pick one method or another.

If you go with quarantine, contact Humblefish as he is the Quarantine, medication Guru. (And a friend of mine. )

Read this thread

The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine) I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else. It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef...

www.reef2reef.com

I won't comment on this. If you want to go this route, that is your choice.

They were fine with Ich prior to pulling out. I feed pe mysis or lrs reef frenzy soaked with zoecon or selcon everyday with half a sheet of sea veggies a day

 

[Kzang]

What the heavy consideration, I put them back into my DT and will practice ich management

 

[Paul B]

Kzang, thats great. You can use Selcon if you like and it won't hurt. But it won't help either. Normal food is all they need and besides that, Selcon will just fall off frozen or wet food as soon as it hits the water so you are just wasting money. But it's your money.

 

[xxkenny90xx]

Kzang, thats great. You can use Selcon if you like and it won't hurt. But it won't help either. Normal food is all they need and besides that, Selcon will just fall off frozen or wet food as soon as it hits the water so you are just wasting money. But it's your money.

(don't mean to hijack the thread, just a quick question)

Paul, I use Zoe, selcon, and garlic guard in my seafood mix that I make, do you recommend ditching all of these additives?

 

[35ppt]

Kzang, thats great. You can use Selcon if you like and it won't hurt. But it won't help either. Normal food is all they need and besides that, Selcon will just fall off frozen or wet food as soon as it hits the water so you are just wasting money. But it's your money.

Not if you add some quality dry food to your frozen mix. Sucks it right up. Also sucks up all the clam juice and whatnot.

 

[Paul B]

Paul, I use Zoe, selcon, and garlic guard in my seafood mix that I make, do you recommend ditching all of these additives?

Yes I do. As long as you feed frozen food with some clams in it. Selcon isn't a bad thing, but it will just go into the water and not in your fish.
For people who feed dry foods, which I think is silly, you can add Selcon to that as it will replace some of the oils and maybe vitamins missing from dry foods, but fresh or frozen foods are so much better there is no reason to add Selcon.

Dry foods were invented for the same reason they invented white flour. Convenience, and it doesn't need refrigeration which is expensive.

Anything that doesn't need refrigeration means either there is nothing good in it to go bad or it is packed with preservatives.

Do fish in the sea eat "Quality dry foods?" Clams are already packed with clam juice.

 

[jda]

I just make sure that fish are healthy, eating and not hiding/scared in my isolation tank, then they go into the display. I have no doubt that there is ich in my tanks, but I have never seen any on the fist for 10+ years.

Keep in mind that a mature tank with lots of biodiversity and microfauna will take care of this a lot better than a sterile tank with only some bacteria added. The mature tank will quickly consume any ich tomonts/cycts (or whatever) that hit the sand... food is food for these critters. This is why people have always said that mature tanks are easier to keep fish in, even though most people think that it is because of stability. Sterile tanks just provide a breeding ground for the ich.

I figured out long ago that there is no chance that I am going to QT everything that enters my tanks (especially inverts), so I just choose a well-fed, stress free and mature environment. I fully believe that most people would be better off with an isolation tank to get fish accustomed to captive life and eating and then spend the rest of real live rock to get the diversity that so many tanks lack now.

I used to use Zoe and Selcon a lot, but the introduction of Mysis adds all the fatty acids that you need and a good quality pellet like New Life Spectrum does the rest. I have not had any HLLE in a long time since these have hit the market and even the few changing Angelfish (like Emperator) look 90-95% as good as adults as wild caught specimens when you used to be able to tell a lot more in the olden days.