Should I put a Refugium in my system?

NewFishMom · Dec 1, 2018

Hi.. Before I start let me say I am new to reefing. I have a wonderful LFS that is helping us get started. We have a 135g reef tank with a wet/dry that has 10-15 gallons. We have 120lbs of live rock 60 lbs of live sand and about 9 fish, a host of clean up crew and about 8 soft corals. Our tank is doing well with water quality and algae growth.

That all being said we are wondering if we should add a refugium? What are your thoughts?

Reefing Madness · Dec 1, 2018

In my experience, yes, I would add one, it only benefits the system, and believe it or not, helps in keep the detritus in the sump instead of the tank. Keep an eye on that wet dry, as in the long run you'll need to keep the media cleaned out so it doesn't start a nitrate factory.

ShadowR55 · Dec 1, 2018

Yes, it’s a pod factory once you dose pods in your tank.

Salt1972 · Dec 1, 2018

We added a refugium to our 125g mixed reef almost a year ago as part of our nutrient export / control plan. While we still do water changes and use GFO, we've found that the refugium is a powerful component to control nitrates and (to a lesser degree) phosphates.

We'd like to add a mandarin at some point, so the pod cultivation is a bonus.

Ours is simple acrylic 10g with a Jebao DCS2000, a Kessil H80, and a small no-name powerhead to keep things flowing a clean. We grow both Chaeto and Caleurpa.

davocean · Dec 1, 2018

A fuge can be beneficial to a number of fish, as well as some nutrient export, but I think I would suggest looking at this wet and dry you have first, and possibly changing that to a more traditional sump, and take that time to make a fuge section.
Wet and dry is not really ideal for reefs.
Maybe post pics of your setup

laverda · Dec 1, 2018

I agree the wet-dry is less than ideal for a reef tank. You could easily and inexpensively convert it in to a ATS ( algae turf scrubber). An ATS is more efficient at removing nitrate and phosphate than a Refugium, but does not as good for pod production. There is no reason you can not have both. This thread may give you some ideas http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2687243

NewFishMom · Dec 1, 2018

Sure thing. We have the current orbit lighting system so I upgraded to the BT module and added the DC pump and powerheads.. full disclosure I am a computer geek so there is that. We have put three bottles of Tiger Pods in the tank so far. Most of the fish are happy. We had 1 death and I'm trying to save another. One Hippo tang got stuck on a power head and is now buried in our back yard, a second yellow tang got beat up pretty bad by another yellow tang and she's quarantined but I'm hopeful. Corals are doing great. We haven't had any water issues. I change out the filter pads once a month. I'm at the point I know enough to be dangerous. Thank you for your ideas.

davocean · Dec 1, 2018

That's better than some wet dry's I've seen and it's kinda workable.

First off I would begin pulling the bioballs, they will not help you here, they can actually raise nitrates, but remove slowly to not shock system, so like a handful once or twice a week is best till gone.

All types of pads, floss, even socks can also bump nitrates, socks should be cleaned or changed out every 3-4 days max, all other pads just should not even really be used.

Sounds like you have loaded up w/ tangs, this can cause aggression and that can cause stress.
I doubt a healthy hippo got stuck on PH, more likely it may have been weak, sick, or badgered by other tangs, maybe even all of the above.

Yellow tangs are pretty darn ticky w/ other tangs, just fyi.

Pics of tank might help too.

I'm also curious what the pods are for, they can be beneficial to many fish, but not really tangs so much.
Your wet dry could be modified to be functional, but I still think you'd be better just making a real sump, or buying one, but this will be ok for a while

NewFishMom · Dec 1, 2018

Our current fish are a diamond goby a six lined wrasse two yellow tangs a hippo tang a sail fined tang a greeen chromis a spotted naso a fox faced rabbit fish a sudo chromis oh and a lighting clownfish. Sorry for the misspelling it is the big 12 championship and I’m a sooner fan.

davocean · Dec 1, 2018

That's a lot of tang for that size tank, and the sailfin gets way too big to keep long term in that, same for the naso, and this may add to aggression.

Really the only fish that will be eating pods would be the sixline, maybe doty, and they are usually piggy eaters among other things(little bullies) and don't really need them.

You have a fairly heavy bioload
I would be looking at nutrient export over pods, ATS would suit you better IMO

laverda · Dec 1, 2018

davocean said:
That's a lot of tang for that size tank, and the sailfin gets way too big to keep long term in that, same for the naso, and this may add to aggression.

Really the only fish that will be eating pods would be the sixline, maybe doty, and they are usually piggy eaters among other things(little bullies) and don't really need them.

You have a fairly heavy bioload
I would be looking at nutrient export over pods, ATS would suit you better IMO

I agree, you still have way to many tangs for a tank that size. I am not surprised you lost one and had to QT another. Your sailfin and Naso are both going to out grow your tank. The yellow tangs will fight with each other as they get larger as well as with the other tangs. I have a 14” sailfin tang in my 300 with just 2 other smaller tangs and they still tussle, mostly over food. My sailfin really is the gentle giant in my tank, but he is very capable of killing the other tangs should he decide to. Lots of hiding places and plenty of food help keep aggression down. It is just a mater of time before you lose another one and another in a tank that size.

Salt1972 · Dec 2, 2018

davocean said:
A fuge can be beneficial to a number of fish, as well as some nutrient export, but I think I would suggest looking at this wet and dry you have first, and possibly changing that to a more traditional sump, and take that time to make a fuge section.
Wet and dry is not really ideal for reefs.
Maybe post pics of your setup

laverda said:
I agree the wet-dry is less than ideal for a reef tank. You could easily and inexpensively convert it in to a ATS ( algae turf scrubber). An ATS is more efficient at removing nitrate and phosphate than a Refugium, but does not as good for pod production. There is no reason you can not have both. This thread may give you some ideas http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2687243

I don't want to hi-jack the thread... Dav / Lav - what is the primary difference in the "wet/dry" vs. the more current sump systems? The bio media? Why would bio media amount to nitrates? Detritus? Wouldn't detritus build up in/on/around rock? I'm not challenging your assertion as much as trying to learn why. FWIW- I'm actually running my old "wet/dry" filter on a quarantine tank now because I had such issues with ammonia on our recent quarantine session.

@NewFishMom - Welcome to the hobby. That system is quite the "splash" to start with! I'm glad your LFS offered you such a warm welcome and confidence. Based on your initial stock list and LFS advice, you may encounter more challenges in the coming weeks. Creating and maintaining an ecosystem for these creatures to thrive is a challenging and rewarding endeavor. You'll find a lot of good advice and direction on this forum. Hopefully, you'll avoid any setbacks, but if they occur, I'd recommend turning to the advice on this forum for help and guidance how to successfully navigate the path to a healthy, balanced system. This crew has certainly helped my daughter and me in our efforts over the last 5+ years.

garbled · Dec 2, 2018

The general rule of tangs is that it's hard to keep a bunch together. Fish have aggression generally against other fish with the same body shape, because they usually inhabit the same food niche. So a yellow tang and a sailfin might fight. Now sometimes you might see someone with 8 yellow tangs, and think, oh, they school, how did he do that? The answer is, with that many, the aggression is spread out amongst the entire group, so tends not to be centered on one. However, groups of tangs are a super delicate balance. Often if you manage to establish such a group, and then make a change, like say you add a six-line wrasse. This breaks the entire dynamic somehow, and sometimes they will flip out and go to war. This is why people tend to discourage groups of tangs in tanks. Also, it "works" in a store, because they have empty tanks where they can't pick a territory out, and they are all equally unhappy with life in general, so tend not to go into fight mode.

Also worth noting, that psuedochromis is probably the most aggressive fish in your whole tank. Watch him, he might be the one on the attack actually. They are generally the top dog in any tank.

BTW, if you're a computer geek, you're definitely going to want a Neptune Apex, or a reef-pi.

davocean · Dec 2, 2018

Salt1972 said:
I don't want to hi-jack the thread... Dav / Lav - what is the primary difference in the "wet/dry" vs. the more current sump systems? The bio media? Why would bio media amount to nitrates? Detritus? Wouldn't detritus build up in/on/around rock? I'm not challenging your assertion as much as trying to learn why. FWIW- I'm actually running my old "wet/dry" filter on a quarantine tank now because I had such issues with ammonia on our recent quarantine session.

Bioballs will quickly turn amo into nitrites, and nitrites to nitrates, but they do nothing more from there, it is the anerobic properties contained in live rock that helps break down nitrates.

A wet dry can be used on a fish only system, so may be fine for your QT, and in fact many LFS w/ lots of fish systems may still incorporate wet dry's to help remove amo quickly in those systems.

They just are not optimal for reefs which will be affected by high nitrates, bioballs are a nitrate sink.

Captain Quint · Dec 2, 2018

Welcome to R2R NewFishMom

Looks like you've gotten quite a bit of good info so far. Thank you for joining and sharing pictures.

+1 on the bio balls. Replacing them with some good LR and or LR rubble would benefit your filtration.

EDIT: yes, adding a fuge would be great for overall benefits.

GoldeneyeRet · Dec 2, 2018

Welcome! Are you sure your LFS is wonderful?

R2r is here to help you will get great advice.

Muttley000 · Dec 2, 2018

Welcome to R2R! To me a fuge is one of those things it's hard to say would ever be bad for a system. More water volume, some nutrient export, and live food production! If set up incorrectly they can be a nutrient sink in the long term, but overall saying add it is safe advice. Agree with removing the bioballs and I too have found an ATS to be helpful to my system.

Saveafish · Dec 2, 2018

Refuge can Sure add a Lot Of bennies. But looking at your sump.. the biggest thing I see, bio-balls and no. Skimmer. At this point you should look at removing The bio-balls and Putting A skimmer in there place. Yes you can have A very happy reef with Out a skimmer. But. You have. The wrong media to have It skimless.