should i use copper when i see scratching?

[acr0p0ra]

Hi all,
I have had several fish in QT since 1/12...tomorrow will be two weeks. They all look great and are eating. several of them are prone to ick.
Powder blue,
achillies
copper band
hippo tang

...to name a few.

I have them in several 40 breeders that are plumbed together so they have plenty of space.

I am noticing one of the hippos is scratching. I see no visible spots. Should i begin treatment with coppersafe or continue waiting until I see potential spots.

Thanks in advance.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Hi all,
I have had several fish in QT since 1/12...tomorrow will be two weeks. They all look great and are eating. several of them are prone to ick.
Powder blue,
achillies
copper band
hippo tang

...to name a few.

I have them in several 40 breeders that are plumbed together so they have plenty of space.

I am noticing one of the hippos is scratching. I see no visible spots. Should i begin treatment with coppersafe or continue waiting until I see potential spots.

Thanks in advance.

Is the fish targeting the gills when it scratches?

 

[NowGlazeIT]

You don’t want to wait to start ramping up coppersafe but this could be flukes and if your plan is to treat with prazi then I recommend performing a freshwater dip to check for flukes before applying any copper

 

[HiddenUser]

If you're not seeing spots, I'd maybe try a freshwater dip to confirm flukes as mentioned. If flukes, run 2-3 Prazi treatments. Otherwise I might still run a couple treatments of prazi before trying Copper, unless you started to see spots show up.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

I wouldn’t wait to see spots but I do respect the idea of ruling out flukes. As long as this fish doesn’t have ich or velvet that is.

 

[Big G]

Here's Meredith's great write up and video on how to do a freshwater dip
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Here's Meredith's great write up and video on how to do a freshwater dip
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/video-how-to-do-a-freshwater-dip.286639/#post-3487082

Dude I was just about to tag you in.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

@Big G if this is was you would you continue with prazi if you weren’t sure after the FW dip or would you go with copper and maybe general cure

 

[rkpetersen]

@Big G if this is was you would you continue with prazi if you weren’t sure after the FW dip or would you go with copper and maybe general cure

General Cure is praziquantel, combined with metronidazole. I'm currently using this as my first step prophylactic medicine in quarantine. Two doses, 5 days apart. Prazi pro is alcohol-based, so you're adding a substantial amount of carbon to your QT along with the medication, which can reportedly result in bacterial blooms under some conditions.

After removing the GC with carbon, I switch to chloroquine phosphate crypto/velvet prophylaxis (or treatment, as the case may be) for 30 days.

 

[Big G]

several of them are prone to ick.

Can you give us more information? When? Which fish? Are you letting the DT go fallow for 76 days to starve out the parasites? Are there any other visible symptoms on the Hippo? Eyes, fins, scales?

 

[NowGlazeIT]

General Cure is praziquantel, combined with metronidazole. I'm currently using this as my first step prophylactic medicine in quarantine. Two doses, 5 days apart. Prazi pro is alcohol-based, so you're adding a substantial amount of carbon to your QT along with the medication, which can reportedly result in bacterial blooms under some conditions.

After removing the GC with carbon, I switch to chloroquine phosphate crypto/velvet prophylaxis (or treatment, as the case may be) for 30 days.

Are you broadcasting general cure to the water column or having your fish eat it mixed with focus?

 

[rkpetersen]

Are you broadcasting general cure to the water column or having your fish eat it mixed with focus?

In the water. Used as directed, the concentration of praziquantel with GC is slightly lower than with prazipro, 2.0 mg/l vs 2.5 mg/l. However either level is more than sufficient to knock off any adult or juvenile flukes. Intestinal parasites might be better treated by administering medicated food, but there are a lot of variables with that technique, and in any case, fish can't help but ingest small quantities of medicated water when they eat any food. Second dose of GC is to treat any hatched fluke eggs. This will raise your prazi and metro concentrations to higher levels, but you only need leave it for one day before doing a water change and adding back fresh carbon.

 

[NowGlazeIT]

In the water. Used as directed, the concentration of praziquantel with GC is slightly lower than with prazipro, 2.0 mg/l vs 2.5 mg/l. However either level is more than sufficient to knock off any adult or juvenile flukes. Intestinal parasites might be better treated by administering medicated food, but there are a lot of variables with that technique, and in any case, fish can't help but ingest small quantities of medicated water when they eat any food. Second dose of GC is to treat any hatched fluke eggs. This will raise your prazi and metro concentrations to higher levels, but you only need leave it for one day before doing a water change and adding back fresh carbon.

General cure treatment seems to be getting more and more common. Thanks for the input @rkpetersen.

 

[Humblefish]

When you see fish scratching in QT, but no visible physical symptoms (i.e. white dots) are present, catch one of the fish and give him a FW dip to check for flukes: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/freshwater-dip.248898/

I usually dip the hardiest fish of the lot, provided I also saw that fish scratching.

If flukes show up during the dip, then you've found your culprit, and should begin Prazipro or API General Cure treatment ASAP. However, if a ton of flukes came off the test fish then I advise giving each & every fish in QT a 5 min FW dip before proceeding with medication. Praziquantel causes flukes to spasm on the fish before dropping off, and too many flukes convulsing on a fish simultaneously can be lethal. Especially if some happen to be in the eyes.

If no flukes show and you still aren't seeing white spots on any of the fish, assume worst case scenario (velvet), and treat with either copper or CP immediately.

 

[Big G]

After removing the GC with carbon, I switch to chloroquine phosphate crypto/velvet prophylaxis (or treatment, as the case may be) for 30 days.

Do not use CP "chloroquine phosphate" on Hippo Tangs, Anthias, and Wrasses.

 

[rkpetersen]

Do not use CP "chloroquine phosphate" on Hippo Tangs, Anthias, and Wrasses.

Somehow I had not heard this at first, and prophylaxed a school of 6 Bartlett Anthias with it at 40 mg/gal for 30 days, without a single loss or any signs of stress. Before anyone asks, I am sure that the concentration was correct, as I have calculated the volume of my QT, use human pharmaceutical grade CP and have a digital spoon scale. But now I'm afraid to try anything similar again!

 

[ReefTeacher]

I have also used CP on Hippo tangs and Anthias without issue. I DID have issues when I tried it with wrasses; they just mysteriously died.

 

[Big G]

Somehow I had not heard this at first, and prophylaxed a school of 6 Bartlett Anthias with it at 40 mg/gal for 30 days, without a single loss or any signs of stress. Before anyone asks, I am sure that the concentration was correct, as I have calculated the volume of my QT, use human pharmaceutical grade CP and have a digital spoon scale. But now I'm afraid to try anything similar again!

I have also used CP on Hippo tangs and Anthias without issue. I DID have issues when I tried it with wrasses; they just mysteriously died.

Could be that it depends on the type of Anthias or the particular strain of Hippo tangs. Definitely more research to be done here on this. Nonetheless extreme caution with advisory has been suggested by Humblefish, 4Fordfamily and others when using CP.