Should We Be Carbon dosing?

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I also won't use skimmers, initially I ddin't see them as necessary in the 90s but after reading Feldman's research showing they skew the microbial populations in aquaria I see them as detrimental to the long term success of keeping corals.

I'd use a skimmer even if it did nothing except aerate the water (when I experimented with mine off, the biggest issue was inadequate aeration evidenced by high pH).

Is your opinion of them being detrimental to success of a reef tank supported by any sort of experiment?

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

What did you dose?

Such effects are unusual, but certainly might be real and folks should not start or continue to dose if they already know they have a bacterial disease in the aquarium.

I dosed vinegar up to really massive doses, and at 410 mL a day to by 120 display (~350 gallons total), i did determine it was too much since the water because somewhat hazy and some organisms did not seem optimal (forget exactly what that was), but at 200 mL a day or less, those negative effects disappeared. I never saw any visible bacteria at event the high dose of 2 mL per gallon. 110 mL spread through the lit hours of the day was my standard dose for years.

Folks should NOT equate all organic molecules. I chose acetate because it is consumed by a great many organisms. It is probably the single highest concentration organic molecule in the ocean, at least in turns of turnover, because so many creatures use it. Thus, it is unlikely to drive only a few species.

Vodka. I had the flow go into the roller filter then that traveled to the skimmer. I still had slime. Dosed slow at first and increased. Saw nitrates drop. But it was messy and the coral issues caused me to stop.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes but only the bacteria in the water column that pass through the skimmer can be removed. He is referring to (what he calls) “bad bacteria” that are accumulating on coral tissue.

I disagree with his opinion. IMHO. Every time you feed your fish you're adding 'carbon'. Dosing vodka or vinegar (as far as I can tell) - do not encourage bacterial overgrowth - on coral. UNLESS misused/mis-dosed

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Vodka. I had the flow go into the roller filter then that traveled to the skimmer. I still had slime. Dosed slow at first and increased. Saw nitrates drop. But it was messy and the coral issues caused me to stop.

When organic carbon dosing, I usually recommend that if the bacteria become unsightly, switch to a different organic to get different species to thrive, and to stop if that doesn't help.

 

[Treefer32]

Here are couple ideas.

ICP values for phosphorous may not be reliable. Stick to measuring phosphate yourself. Your system could be phosphate depleted.

I have upper limit I use for vinegar dosing, 1 mL per gallon. My system starts to have visible bacteria growth and nitrate begins to nose dive. Phosphate will also start to be used up. I have dosed PO4 during this period. Vodka has very roughly 8 times more organic carbon per mL. My upper limit translates to 1/8 mL per gallon vodka. I see you have a 340 gallon system which means an upper limit of vodka about 40 mL. 11 mL could be too low to see much nitrate reduction.

Your algae scrubber capacity might be too small for the amount of nitrate generated by your system. I have no idea how these things are sized. I have about 2 square feet of Ulva which doubles in volume every 5-7 days for a 100 gallon system. My nitrates came down from 25 and are stuck at 7 ppm. How many square feet if algae do you have, roughly?

My Phosphate test (Hanna ultro low range phoshpate test) showed my phosphates higher than the ICP test within a few days of each other. My readings showed .1. The ICP test showed .04.

Well, I'll continue to increase my vodka amounts and continue to test to see if anything noticable changes. I'm hoping to not spend in Vodka what I spent on water changes. LOL... Drunken fish?

 

[MnFish1]

What did you dose?

Such effects are unusual, but certainly might be real and folks should not start or continue to dose if they already know they have a bacterial disease in the aquarium.

I dosed vinegar up to really massive doses, and at 410 mL a day to by 120 display (~350 gallons total), i did determine it was too much since the water because somewhat hazy and some organisms did not seem optimal (forget exactly what that was), but at 200 mL a day or less, those negative effects disappeared. I never saw any visible bacteria at event the high dose of 2 mL per gallon. 110 mL spread through the lit hours of the day was my standard dose for years.

Folks should NOT equate all organic molecules. I chose acetate because it is consumed by a great many organisms. It is probably the single highest concentration organic molecule in the ocean, at least in turns of turnover, because so many creatures use it. Thus, it is unlikely to drive only a few species.

Interesting - I was not aware of this!

 

[MaxTremors]

When i started carbon dosing issues with STN and brown jelly began and continued. When i stopped, all of the issues stopped. Anecdotal, as is most everything in reefing, but the timing was spot on and didn't really do anything else different.

Do you have any reason to believe that, assuming STN and brown jelly is caused by bacteria, that carbon dosing would not feed such bacteria?

As to the mess and slime, that is what i experienced, which also what Jake Adams said about carbon dosing in one of his reefbuildrers/reef threarpy videos. He talked about slime even getting on his fish. He said it was messy and there are better ways to deal with the same issue. I agree.

I’ve only noticed slime/visible bacteria (not really slime, it’s this pink almost wet cotton/spider web feeling stuff) when dosing too much. In my case I started to get it right around the 1ml per gallon range. I now dose around 0.5ml per gallon and have no slime or bacterial mats.

 

[Mywifeisgunnakillme]

When organic carbon dosing, I usually recommend that if the bacteria become unsightly, switch to a different organic to get different species to thrive, and to stop if that doesn't help.

Thanks. For now, i just beefed up the macro algae refugium. What do you think of sulfur reactors? Parkers Reef really likes them and said it was slime free, the bacteria stayed in the reactor, and super low flow (so just not nearly the turnover to get slime everywhere?). I was considering that possibly in the future.

 

[Reefology1]

'd use a skimmer even if it did nothing except aerate the water (when I experimented with mine off, the biggest issue was inadequate aeration evidenced by high pH).

@Randy Holmes-Farley what was your reasoning for conducting the experiment? What were your findings, other than poor aeration?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

My Phosphate test (Hanna ultro low range phoshpate test) showed my phosphates higher than the ICP test within a few days of each other. My readings showed .1. The ICP test showed .04.

Those are likely the same within the expected error of both methods.

I'd personally just assume the actual answer is "Phosphate is OK".

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Randy Holmes-Farley what was your reasoning for conducting the experiment? What were your findings, other than poor aeration?

I think I had some sort of pump problem. It was a forced experiment that I continued for a few weeks to see the effects.
pH rose higher than I preferred (pH max above pH 8.55 since I dosed limewater/kalkwasser). I do not recall noticing any other particular effects.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks. For now, i just beefed up the macro algae refugium. What do you think of sulfur reactors? Parkers Reef really likes them and said it was slime free, the bacteria stayed in the reactor, and super low flow (so just not nearly the turnover to get slime everywhere?). I was considering that possibly in the future.

Growing macroalgae is a fine plan.

Not a fan of sulfur denitrators as it consumes alk and lowers pH, and thus messes up with balanced calcium and alk dosing methods that I think are best.

But they certainly work.

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

I've been in the reefing hobby for decades and I've never had a better looking or thriving aquarium than the early years. I attribute that to knowing very little at the time (the less you know, the less you change), starting out with live rock, 3" aragonite sand bed, a crappy skimmer that basically didn't pull out much of anything, and very few fish.

Fast forward to my current system that’s 5 years old. It started out with dry rock, a sprinkling of aragonite gravel (I don't like the look of bare bottom), an ATS and an oversized skimmer. I had issues initially with "the ugly stage" seemingly lasting forever. The system at the time was running sterile and I had a heck of a time trying to get nutrients up. So I added a lot more fish, turned my skimmer and ATS lights off for half the day and things turned for the better.

A few years later, the nutrients climbed to where my nitrates where running around 30ppm and phosphates around 0.4ppm. I increased run time on my skimmer and ATS to 18hrs a day and started carbon dosing. I used vinegar and gfo to slowly get nutrients back in check (no3 <2 and po4 <0.1), and today use those same methods to keep them there.

This brings me to the reason for this thread: should I continue to carbon dose?

I’ve read on more than one occasion, in this forum, that Randy Holmes-Farley would dose vinegar (even if dosing nitrates was required) because of the increased bacteria as a food source to filter feeders and other organisms. This is one of the main reasons I continue to dose vinegar, even though my nutrients are in check.

Recently I’ve been toying with the idea of adding amino acids to my vinegar dosing container to reduce po4 without the use of gfo. In doing so, I started to wonder, should I still be carbon dosing? And if so, what should i dose (amino and vinegar)? How does carbon dosing affect the macros in my ATS? How does my ATS affect carbon dosing?

Hoping those for and against carbon dosing can chime in to share your views to help me answer some of the questions above.

Thank You

Not Continuous imo Because:-
1. Completed Randy Vinegar Regime of 16 weeks and No3 Never a Problem ever Since till i had to Dose No3. I suggest all new Reefers to Do Vinegar Regime once for all.
2. But I Say Carbon Ratio Gets Over and Abive The RedField Ratio and Thatts Where you have to do a Major Water Change to lower Carbon Ratio imo.
3. Also I had to Remove Seachem Matric and Denitrator to 1/4 th only cause Bacteria was Strong enough to Vanish No3 despite heavy feeding. but Removing of Denitrator bacteria did bring Cyano as bacteria lessened and probably system didnt like it.
4. To meet No3 demand this Resulted in Heavy In Heavy Out Method and Resulted in my Reef Grew Full in 2 years. Now i Try to find a month where my No3 are 5 ppm and i dose 5-10 ml Vinegar once a while in that month cause 10ml brings No3 down back to 2.5 ppm where i stop it for my LpS happiness.
5. Also Now Instead of Vinegar I Dose Benificial Bacteria every month to Regain population if lost in Cyano Treatment or etc or even to tackle No3 amd Po4 as well.
6. My No3 rise extremly slow with 7 times heavy feed but I Have Found the Sweat Spot on In and Out via Biological Filteration which is Most Imp to Achieve imo.
Happy Reefing.

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

It is a balance for sure.
I keep po4 @ <.1 and no3@ <5.
This allows me to carbon dose small amounts that I believe are benificial to the corals and macro algae in my fuge.

I only dose vinegarvwhen No3 reach 5ppm and there u go for another 1 month to relax on No3. Fot Po4 Phosphate Rx is best bet to keep it under .1
Heavy In Out is mybway to sucess with Bio Filteration

 

[Koty]

1. @Randy Holmes-Farley can you elaborate on the biological load of your tank?
More specifically do you have a lot of fish and corals that are extensively fed?
I use my skeemer 24/7 on full throttle, have a reverse-lit refuge, and a TLF bioplastic reactor. I add half a teaspoon kalkwasser slurry every other day (100g). I have but 7 fish most are very young so I feed a lot. I plan to add more fish and move to dosing-pumps even though I really like the kalkwasser as it keeps my ph stable at 8.3-4 (have to measure KH every other day to keep it tightly around KH=9) my nitrates and phosphates are not moving from 5-3 and 0.02-4 ppm for months. PAs I add a few more fish I will start carbon dosing if parameters will start rising

An interesting take from this thread is the potential negative effect of algae on the coral microbiome. Although its relevance to growing corals in aquariums is not clear, it is possible that some corals may be affected by stuff secreted from an algea-loaded refuge.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

1. @Randy Holmes-Farley can you elaborate on the biological load of your tank?
More specifically do you have a lot of fish and corals that are extensively fed?
I use my skeemer 24/7 on full throttle, have a reverse-lit refuge, and a TLF bioplastic reactor. I add half a teaspoon kalkwasser slurry every other day (100g). I have but 7 fish most are very young so I feed a lot. I plan to add more fish and move to dosing-pumps even though I really like the kalkwasser as it keeps my ph stable at 8.3-4 (have to measure KH every other day to keep it tightly around KH=9) my nitrates and phosphates are not moving from 5-3 and 0.02-4 ppm for months. PAs I add a few more fish I will start carbon dosing if parameters will start rising

An interesting take from this thread is the potential negative effect of algae on the coral microbiome. Although its relevance to growing corals in aquariums is not clear, it is possible that some corals may be affected by stuff secreted from an algea-loaded refuge.

The tank is not up now, but here's what it looked like when I was dosing vinegar:

Randy's Tank Description

In this thread, I thought I'd document my tank and the variety of methods I use on it. It has been set up since 1995, but it moved from a 90 to a 120 at one point, got broken down and the rocks scrubbed at another, and rock has been added to it a couple of times. As can be seen from the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[LPS Bum]

You're going to need an efficient export method to continually reduce nitrate and phosphate in your reef. That could be carbon dosing, a Chaeto refugium, or something else.

Personally, I run a small (2 ml per day) maintenance dose of NoPox, because it's an easy and affordable way to keep my nitrates in check. I also run a small amount of phosguard and carbon in a mesh bag, which I change out weekly. That keeps the phosphates and organics in check.

These things just augment skimming and weekly water changes. So yes, if carbon dosing is working for you, I think you should continue.

 

[MnFish1]

Not Continuous imo Because:-
1. Completed Randy Vinegar Regime of 16 weeks and No3 Never a Problem ever Since till i had to Dose No3. I suggest all new Reefers to Do Vinegar Regime once for all.
2. But I Say Carbon Ratio Gets Over and Abive The RedField Ratio and Thatts Where you have to do a Major Water Change to lower Carbon Ratio imo.
3. Also I had to Remove Seachem Matric and Denitrator to 1/4 th only cause Bacteria was Strong enough to Vanish No3 despite heavy feeding. but Removing of Denitrator bacteria did bring Cyano as bacteria lessened and probably system didnt like it.
4. To meet No3 demand this Resulted in Heavy In Heavy Out Method and Resulted in my Reef Grew Full in 2 years. Now i Try to find a month where my No3 are 5 ppm and i dose 5-10 ml Vinegar once a while in that month cause 10ml brings No3 down back to 2.5 ppm where i stop it for my LpS happiness.
5. Also Now Instead of Vinegar I Dose Benificial Bacteria every month to Regain population if lost in Cyano Treatment or etc or even to tackle No3 amd Po4 as well.
6. My No3 rise extremly slow with 7 times heavy feed but I Have Found the Sweat Spot on In and Out via Biological Filteration which is Most Imp to Achieve imo.
Happy Reefing.

how would you know when your carbon is 'above the Redfield ratio'. How are you measuring carbon?

 

[Minhaj Qazi]

how would you know when your carbon is 'above the Redfield ratio'. How are you measuring carbon?

Nit a scientists but i dont think anyone can measure Red Field in Real keeping in view organic and inorganic parts of lets say P . But one surely knows Carbon is being added over an above the existing scale of Ratios. Still my personal anacdotal experiance say Reef Seems Improving whenever we try to move to Red Fild Ratio. I see No Algae and Total Stability. I felt after completing Vinegar Regime and solution of No3 issue, the excess of Acetic acids must be brought back to Natural Ratios.

 

[MnFish1]

Nit a scientists but i dont think anyone can measure Red Field in Real keeping in view organic and inorganic parts of lets say P . But one surely knows Carbon is being added over an above the existing scale of Ratios. Still my personal anacdotal experiance say Reef Seems Improving whenever we try to move to Red Fild Ratio. I see No Algae and Total Stability. I felt after completing Vinegar Regime and solution of No3 issue, the excess of Acetic acids must be brought back to Natural Ratios.

That is the reason I asked. The Redfield ratio is as you said - a ratio of Carbon Nitrogen and Phosphorous - which we do not measure. So - I was trying to figure out how to get them back to 'natural ratios' - if we can't measure if they are outside 'natural ratios'?

It is my opinion that - at least within the organisms - the Redfield ratio does not change. Thats the point of the Redfield Ratio - and Its been shown (at least Redfield concluded) - that the concentrations in the water are the way they are because of the ratio in the phytoplankton - NOT the other way around - i.e. the chemicals in the water do not affect the ratio in phytoplankton.