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paintballer768
Master of Puppets
Wow thats a monster for sure
CrustaceanNut
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puff daddy is 14" 5+ wide and 5+ tall I am working on getting a starry (stellatus) grown up right now too.
NORTHERN REEF
"JUST FRAG IT"
i have to say i have seen this guy in person and he is truely a master piece definitly show quality and a graceful swimmer really sweet speciman and a freat find congrats again:biggrin:
CrustaceanNut
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210 gallon tank with a 60 gallon sump turboflotor 5000 skimmer with a modded mag 12 recirc pump rated for 450 gallons 40 watt UV sterilizer 3 Biotowers for a ton of aeration 2 mag 12 return pumps, anything else you would like to know?
He's HUGE!!
NORTHERN REEF
"JUST FRAG IT"
he also will take shrimp out of your hand as well gentle giant :bigsmile:
one day jeff i will have one ohh yes
i drool over yours :dribble:
one day jeff i will have one ohh yes
i drool over yours :dribble:
Reef Goddess
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Wow, a 210 for a 14" fish! I guess its a good thing you don't have much rock in there. Seems most people don't share my views on large fish in small aquariums. Lovely fish though.
One of my customers has a 210 with a 7-8" vlamingi tang that I'm trying to find a larger home for because he just doesn't have enough swimming room. I'm not knocking you personally, but I think its very unkind to give large fish such small tanks to live in. If we were more responsible reefers we would purchase fish that won't outgrow our aquariums. When I see the vlamingi its obvious to me that he is very bored because he has a limited swimming area. If anyone has a 500+ tank and would like to give this guy a good home let me know.
One of my customers has a 210 with a 7-8" vlamingi tang that I'm trying to find a larger home for because he just doesn't have enough swimming room. I'm not knocking you personally, but I think its very unkind to give large fish such small tanks to live in. If we were more responsible reefers we would purchase fish that won't outgrow our aquariums. When I see the vlamingi its obvious to me that he is very bored because he has a limited swimming area. If anyone has a 500+ tank and would like to give this guy a good home let me know.
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Reef Goddess
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So your 210 is standard 6x2x2.5'? Puffers in the wild occupy a lot more space than that I know, I've been snorkeling down here and there are plenty of puffers. They roam all over the place in the turtle grassbeds and reefs, not just in a 210 gallon space.
I'm not criticizing you because maybe you got the puffer small and didn't know better? Who knows? But I've had a similar discussion with some guys on here that were talking about lion fish with OceanParadise. One guy had 2 volitan lion fish in a 90 gallon tank. Volitans grow to 15" long. Can you honestly say this is appropriate or responsible by making the excuse that they don't swim around much? I have a radiata lion fish that is 5.5" in a 120, he truly doesn't swim around much compared to a volitan, but I try to make sure he has plenty of space to swim and ledges to hide under.
I feel like a lot of people purchase panther groupers, puffers, lion fish, sharks, etc because they are "cool" and they want the predatory look, but they don't really consider how large these animals are going to grow and what is a reasonable sized habitat for them.
Sure its partly on the aquarium industry for selling them when they are babies when they know full well they will turn into monsters that most people will have to return or keep in tanks that are far too small for them. But people continue to buy them without doing research or caring, so the industry supplies them. Just like all those impossible to keep corals that keep coming in because people continue to purchase them. I don't think they shouldn't be brought in at all, but I do think that only people that have the right tank size or experience should keep them.
When it comes to pets a lot of people don't think about these things. As long as they are well fed and appear healthy thats enough. I see it with people in the city that keep really large dogs in tiny backyards and rarely walk them or large parrots in tiny cages. But just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it right.
I don't want to come off as some PETA person, I just feel very strongly about this issue. I think its great that you have those awesome fish, but I hope that you're planning a tank upgrade sometime in the future.
A better thing is to have fish that fit your reef and won't out grow it. One of my customer's has a 670 gallon aquarium, none of his fish are over 3.5" and none of them will grow larger than 5". That's how it should be.
There are plenty of cool reef fish that I would like to own, one of my favorites is an Achilles tang. This fish grows to 9.5" and I know that none of my tanks would be large enough for one within a year or two even I purchased one at a small size.
I'm not meaning to dump on your thread, I just think people should do more research about the fish they buy and try to consider that they deserve a habitat that fits their needs not the desires of humans. I mean would you be content living in a 12x12' space your entire life if you were used to living in a 2000 sq foot house and went out regularly?
I'm not criticizing you because maybe you got the puffer small and didn't know better? Who knows? But I've had a similar discussion with some guys on here that were talking about lion fish with OceanParadise. One guy had 2 volitan lion fish in a 90 gallon tank. Volitans grow to 15" long. Can you honestly say this is appropriate or responsible by making the excuse that they don't swim around much? I have a radiata lion fish that is 5.5" in a 120, he truly doesn't swim around much compared to a volitan, but I try to make sure he has plenty of space to swim and ledges to hide under.
I feel like a lot of people purchase panther groupers, puffers, lion fish, sharks, etc because they are "cool" and they want the predatory look, but they don't really consider how large these animals are going to grow and what is a reasonable sized habitat for them.
Sure its partly on the aquarium industry for selling them when they are babies when they know full well they will turn into monsters that most people will have to return or keep in tanks that are far too small for them. But people continue to buy them without doing research or caring, so the industry supplies them. Just like all those impossible to keep corals that keep coming in because people continue to purchase them. I don't think they shouldn't be brought in at all, but I do think that only people that have the right tank size or experience should keep them.
When it comes to pets a lot of people don't think about these things. As long as they are well fed and appear healthy thats enough. I see it with people in the city that keep really large dogs in tiny backyards and rarely walk them or large parrots in tiny cages. But just because a lot of people do it doesn't make it right.
I don't want to come off as some PETA person, I just feel very strongly about this issue. I think its great that you have those awesome fish, but I hope that you're planning a tank upgrade sometime in the future.
A better thing is to have fish that fit your reef and won't out grow it. One of my customer's has a 670 gallon aquarium, none of his fish are over 3.5" and none of them will grow larger than 5". That's how it should be.
There are plenty of cool reef fish that I would like to own, one of my favorites is an Achilles tang. This fish grows to 9.5" and I know that none of my tanks would be large enough for one within a year or two even I purchased one at a small size.
I'm not meaning to dump on your thread, I just think people should do more research about the fish they buy and try to consider that they deserve a habitat that fits their needs not the desires of humans. I mean would you be content living in a 12x12' space your entire life if you were used to living in a 2000 sq foot house and went out regularly?
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Reef Goddess
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Your fish sizes.........
So let’s put this all into perspective so that everyone can see exactly why I am making a big deal about this.
Here are the adult sizes for the fish you currently have in your tank: Starry trigger 21 inches, Picasso 10 inches, Durgeon 20 inches, Pink Tail 15.7 inches, Stars/Stripes Puffer 20 inches, Porcupine Puffer 18 inches, and Mappa puffer 26 inches.
All of these fish are in a 210 gallon tank and one can only hope for the fishes' sake that you will have a larger tank or you find a larger home for them by the time they all are adult size.
So let’s put this all into perspective so that everyone can see exactly why I am making a big deal about this.
Here are the adult sizes for the fish you currently have in your tank: Starry trigger 21 inches, Picasso 10 inches, Durgeon 20 inches, Pink Tail 15.7 inches, Stars/Stripes Puffer 20 inches, Porcupine Puffer 18 inches, and Mappa puffer 26 inches.
All of these fish are in a 210 gallon tank and one can only hope for the fishes' sake that you will have a larger tank or you find a larger home for them by the time they all are adult size.
by your "ideas" that means no one should keep a clown fish in anything smaller than a 90 gallon tank. Like crustacean said there is a difference between putting a tang that swims for miles in a day compared to a puffer that might swim in an area say 100 feet. If we were to take our fish and ONLY put them into tanks based on the distance they travel in the ocean there would be NO point in even being in the hobby.
Reef Goddess
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Yet there is nothing wrong with him keeping 7 fish that will all grow over 10" inches in a 210? Have you gone diving recently and done some research on what size territory these fish actually occupy? Or even read some reports on it?
To make the statement that I think keeping clown fish in anything smaller than a 90 gallon tank is silly. Different clown fish come in a variety of sizes and yes I do think its wrong to keep clown fish that grow larger than 3.5" in a tank smaller than a 90 if they are very active fish. Black/white sebae clowns and my allardi clowns are much more active swimmers than my false perculas that sit in an anemone all day, so yes they have different habitat requirements and shouldn't be kept in the same size tanks when they are full grown.
But of course you are not comparing apples to apples. Keeping a 14" fish in a 210 alone is more than pushing it, but to keep it with 6 other very large fish is not responsible or considerate.
I've read a lot of different articles by "experts" this evening on keeping large fish and even a lot them don't stress the importance of leaving very large fish in the ocean or having a public aquarium sized tank. Several of these articles failed to mention the fact that if large fish are kept in tanks that are too small for their needs, that they can have stunted growth and often die prematurely. I'm not making this up, I am quoting other people like Bob Fenner that have articles on the subject.
Most articles on puffers fail to mention that puffers like a very diverse aquarium habitat; that they are very intelligent fish, and that its important to have lots of hiding spaces, complex rock work, plants, and a sand bed for them to dig around in and explore. Otherwise they tend to get bored over time and develop bad habits.
So after doing all this research I have come to the conclusion that its not hobbyists' fault that they aren't more thoughtful with stocking their reefs, a lot of the blame should rest on the shoulders of so-called experts that write these articles about keeping big fish. One guy wrote an article about his puffer Floyd that he had had for five years and had grown to a size of 10 inches in his 125 tank. He was in the process of moving it into a 225 tank. Neither of these tanks are an acceptable size for a 10" fish.
A different article talked about Queen triggerfish, they can grow up to at least 2-2.5 feet in the wild. The writer said that on a reef these fish have a territory of at least a few hundred square feet. So how can you tell me that a fish that is going to reach an equivilent size is going to be happy in a 210 size tank?
Its different when we keep corals that out grow our systems, they end up stinging stuff and we go "oh crap, I guess this coral is too big for my tank". But if fish look healthy to us, we often don't care if the tank they're in is too small. Just like I have seen plenty of people in my lifetime that keep Macaws (type of large parrot) in 4 foot cages or less. Those birds roam entire rain forests.
I don't think there is anything wrong with promoting the idea that we should only keep fish that will be comfortable in our tanks. This means that you may have some fish that are pushing it a little, but still have plenty of room to swim and be happy. This is not the same as keeping a whale in a bath tub, where the only thing the fish can do all day is swim from one very short end to the other. To condone this point of view is wrong and if that makes me the fish police, so be it.
In many ways this hobby is still young and there are many concepts that need to be challenged and changed. Too many people still view the reef creatures they keep as "living art" or learning through trial and error instead of researching before you purchase a coral/fish. A much better form of stocking your tank is to purchase fish that will grow into your system, not fish that you know are going to out grow their tank within a year, but you really want one so you get it anyway. Those reefers have to worry about upgrading to a larger tank just to accommodate too large fish. It takes most people a long time to be able to afford a tank upgrade and in the meantime their fish aren't getting any smaller. Large fish aren't like keeping reptiles, they won't grow to only a certain size depending on the size of their tank. Anybody thats ever kept a grouper can tell you that.
So why not compromise when stocking your tank and say "I'd really like to keep that fish but 10" is just too big for my 75 and so let me see what other fish are in the same family that might be smaller and will do better in my size tank." There are some really cool dwarf puffer fish that can easily be kept in smaller tanks.
Just like when I got my radiata, I researched the different lions out there and realized that a volitan would grow too large for any system I had or would upgrade to in the near future. Even radiata's are supposed to reach at least 8" at adult size and I worry whether I will be able to provide him with an adequate sized tank. Over the past 3 years he has grown slowly and I don't over feed him, so we'll see. When the time comes that he out grows his 3x3' tank hopefully I will have a larger tank or I will find someone that has a better system for him to live in.
Keeping reef creatures should be viewed as a privilege, if we are going to remove these animals from their natural habitats and expect them to be happy living in a small glass box for the rest of their lives, then the least we can do show them some respect/care and try to give them the best environment possible. I'm sorry for being a conscientious reefer, I guess someone has to be.
To make the statement that I think keeping clown fish in anything smaller than a 90 gallon tank is silly. Different clown fish come in a variety of sizes and yes I do think its wrong to keep clown fish that grow larger than 3.5" in a tank smaller than a 90 if they are very active fish. Black/white sebae clowns and my allardi clowns are much more active swimmers than my false perculas that sit in an anemone all day, so yes they have different habitat requirements and shouldn't be kept in the same size tanks when they are full grown.
But of course you are not comparing apples to apples. Keeping a 14" fish in a 210 alone is more than pushing it, but to keep it with 6 other very large fish is not responsible or considerate.
I've read a lot of different articles by "experts" this evening on keeping large fish and even a lot them don't stress the importance of leaving very large fish in the ocean or having a public aquarium sized tank. Several of these articles failed to mention the fact that if large fish are kept in tanks that are too small for their needs, that they can have stunted growth and often die prematurely. I'm not making this up, I am quoting other people like Bob Fenner that have articles on the subject.
Most articles on puffers fail to mention that puffers like a very diverse aquarium habitat; that they are very intelligent fish, and that its important to have lots of hiding spaces, complex rock work, plants, and a sand bed for them to dig around in and explore. Otherwise they tend to get bored over time and develop bad habits.
So after doing all this research I have come to the conclusion that its not hobbyists' fault that they aren't more thoughtful with stocking their reefs, a lot of the blame should rest on the shoulders of so-called experts that write these articles about keeping big fish. One guy wrote an article about his puffer Floyd that he had had for five years and had grown to a size of 10 inches in his 125 tank. He was in the process of moving it into a 225 tank. Neither of these tanks are an acceptable size for a 10" fish.
A different article talked about Queen triggerfish, they can grow up to at least 2-2.5 feet in the wild. The writer said that on a reef these fish have a territory of at least a few hundred square feet. So how can you tell me that a fish that is going to reach an equivilent size is going to be happy in a 210 size tank?
Its different when we keep corals that out grow our systems, they end up stinging stuff and we go "oh crap, I guess this coral is too big for my tank". But if fish look healthy to us, we often don't care if the tank they're in is too small. Just like I have seen plenty of people in my lifetime that keep Macaws (type of large parrot) in 4 foot cages or less. Those birds roam entire rain forests.
I don't think there is anything wrong with promoting the idea that we should only keep fish that will be comfortable in our tanks. This means that you may have some fish that are pushing it a little, but still have plenty of room to swim and be happy. This is not the same as keeping a whale in a bath tub, where the only thing the fish can do all day is swim from one very short end to the other. To condone this point of view is wrong and if that makes me the fish police, so be it.
In many ways this hobby is still young and there are many concepts that need to be challenged and changed. Too many people still view the reef creatures they keep as "living art" or learning through trial and error instead of researching before you purchase a coral/fish. A much better form of stocking your tank is to purchase fish that will grow into your system, not fish that you know are going to out grow their tank within a year, but you really want one so you get it anyway. Those reefers have to worry about upgrading to a larger tank just to accommodate too large fish. It takes most people a long time to be able to afford a tank upgrade and in the meantime their fish aren't getting any smaller. Large fish aren't like keeping reptiles, they won't grow to only a certain size depending on the size of their tank. Anybody thats ever kept a grouper can tell you that.
So why not compromise when stocking your tank and say "I'd really like to keep that fish but 10" is just too big for my 75 and so let me see what other fish are in the same family that might be smaller and will do better in my size tank." There are some really cool dwarf puffer fish that can easily be kept in smaller tanks.
Just like when I got my radiata, I researched the different lions out there and realized that a volitan would grow too large for any system I had or would upgrade to in the near future. Even radiata's are supposed to reach at least 8" at adult size and I worry whether I will be able to provide him with an adequate sized tank. Over the past 3 years he has grown slowly and I don't over feed him, so we'll see. When the time comes that he out grows his 3x3' tank hopefully I will have a larger tank or I will find someone that has a better system for him to live in.
Keeping reef creatures should be viewed as a privilege, if we are going to remove these animals from their natural habitats and expect them to be happy living in a small glass box for the rest of their lives, then the least we can do show them some respect/care and try to give them the best environment possible. I'm sorry for being a conscientious reefer, I guess someone has to be.
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