Sick fish, Lost about moving forward …

[sucker4puffers]

I’ve been lurking here for weeks but now that I’m completely lost and broken about how to treat my juvenile porcupine puffer; I decided to post on here before throwing my hands up and calling my LFS to see if they will take him back.

Background: I bought this sick fish from a LFS that I refuse to ever return to due to the fact that I’ve seen this fish crash 2 weeks before purchasing- and couldn’t walk away after seeing another porcupine puffer die at this establishment.

March 9: bought porcupine puffer and placed in DT while QT cycling. Visible ich present on fins, shy, hiding, no appetite.

March 11: ich gone (so I thought) kept puffer in DT because he was eating.

March 18: ich and puffer on brink of death - moved him to QT with salinity of 1.023, dosed coppersafe to 0.25, temp at 81. Airstone added as well. After adding fish to QT he had a prolapsed anus situation with resolved.

March 19: ich fell off, now showing stringy slime with white dots (brook?) also not pooping (IP?) Did a FW dip for the hell of it.

March 21: ich fell off, kept parameters. Ammonia high so did 50% WC and redosed copper to .50. Bought API gen cure and fin/body to treat after fish returned to normal habits And eating.

March 22-26: ich has not reattached, did MANY WC, kept coppersafe 1.0, ammonia is out of control. Checking with API and ammonia badge. Fish is playful and eating.

March 26: before bed, saw fish acting erratically, bumping into walls, still light sensitive, did not want to eat. Ammonia badge reading .50 so I did a 50% WC.

Present: I’m about to give up and re home this fish. He puffed up after I turned on the light on accident and is just laying in the sand. I don’t know what else to do. He’s still breathing rapidly. I have no idea how to continue. During QT process I’ve been attempting to maintain copper levels, but ammonia sky rockets and fish seems in distress. I have not been able to keep copper above 1.0 without fish acting like he’s dying. I also have already completed 2 doses of API general cure, and API Fin & Body (on 3rd dose of 2 part treatment). The reason I treated with this was from reading forums and on here. Coppersafe and these meds are compatible and I’ve followed all directions perfectly, doing almost 1 25-50% WC everyday.

Fish Diet: I’ve tried frozen mysis, shrimp, every method of feeding. He’s only interested in freeze dried krill… trying to give more variety.

Overall: I’m not sure how to continue. He pooped brown/pink yesterday and was eating non stop. His belly got full but then the just throws it up. He seems to be okay right now but Idk how to approach the ammonia situation. Visibly he looks to be normal after everything, but he still has a yellow discoloration on his back. Any advice? I’m so desperate.

After I brought him home

Ich at it’s worst

Today, no ich but still seems unwell

 

[vetteguy53081]

I’ve been lurking here for weeks but now that I’m completely lost and broken about how to treat my juvenile porcupine puffer; I decided to post on here before throwing my hands up and calling my LFS to see if they will take him back.

Background: I bought this sick fish from a LFS that I refuse to ever return to due to the fact that I’ve seen this fish crash 2 weeks before purchasing- and couldn’t walk away after seeing another porcupine puffer die at this establishment.

March 9: bought porcupine puffer and placed in DT while QT cycling. Visible ich present on fins, shy, hiding, no appetite.

March 11: ich gone (so I thought) kept puffer in DT because he was eating.

March 18: ich and puffer on brink of death - moved him to QT with salinity of 1.023, dosed coppersafe to 0.25, temp at 81. Airstone added as well. After adding fish to QT he had a prolapsed anus situation with resolved.

March 19: ich fell off, now showing stringy slime with white dots (brook?) also not pooping (IP?) Did a FW dip for the hell of it.

March 21: ich fell off, kept parameters. Ammonia high so did 50% WC and redosed copper to .50. Bought API gen cure and fin/body to treat after fish returned to normal habits And eating.

March 22-26: ich has not reattached, did MANY WC, kept coppersafe 1.0, ammonia is out of control. Checking with API and ammonia badge. Fish is playful and eating.

March 26: before bed, saw fish acting erratically, bumping into walls, still light sensitive, did not want to eat. Ammonia badge reading .50 so I did a 50% WC.

Present: I’m about to give up and re home this fish. He puffed up after I turned on the light on accident and is just laying in the sand. I don’t know what else to do. He’s still breathing rapidly. I have no idea how to continue. During QT process I’ve been attempting to maintain copper levels, but ammonia sky rockets and fish seems in distress. I have not been able to keep copper above 1.0 without fish acting like he’s dying. I also have already completed 2 doses of API general cure, and API Fin & Body (on 3rd dose of 2 part treatment). The reason I treated with this was from reading forums and on here. Coppersafe and these meds are compatible and I’ve followed all directions perfectly, doing almost 1 25-50% WC everyday.

Fish Diet: I’ve tried frozen mysis, shrimp, every method of feeding. He’s only interested in freeze dried krill… trying to give more variety.

Overall: I’m not sure how to continue. He pooped brown/pink yesterday and was eating non stop. His belly got full but then the just throws it up. He seems to be okay right now but Idk how to approach the ammonia situation. Visibly he looks to be normal after everything, but he still has a yellow discoloration on his back. Any advice? I’m so desperate.

After I brought him home

Ich at it’s worst

Today, no ich but still seems unwell

Piorcupines dont do well with copper not that it can be used.
Treament should have been at copper level 2.25-2.5. Copper of .25 is little to nothing and should have been at salinity 1.024-1.025 at 80 degrees. What copper test kit are you using?

Ammonia badges as well as API test kits are very unreliable and often produce false reading disappointing many reefers. Water change will be needed as badge reading is likely higher.
What foods are you feeding ? This fish needs meaty foods such as krill, shrimp, squid, clam, etc

Coppersafe is best copper remedy and do not mix with general cure and if general cure, fin rot treatment NOT needed. Were you using a copper test kit ?

 

[rmorris_14]

I would do hyposalinity with a porcupine. Hope The little guy can pull through. Have you tried feeding fresh claims or fresh shrimp?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

I’ve been lurking here for weeks but now that I’m completely lost and broken about how to treat my juvenile porcupine puffer; I decided to post on here before throwing my hands up and calling my LFS to see if they will take him back.

Background: I bought this sick fish from a LFS that I refuse to ever return to due to the fact that I’ve seen this fish crash 2 weeks before purchasing- and couldn’t walk away after seeing another porcupine puffer die at this establishment.

March 9: bought porcupine puffer and placed in DT while QT cycling. Visible ich present on fins, shy, hiding, no appetite.

March 11: ich gone (so I thought) kept puffer in DT because he was eating.

March 18: ich and puffer on brink of death - moved him to QT with salinity of 1.023, dosed coppersafe to 0.25, temp at 81. Airstone added as well. After adding fish to QT he had a prolapsed anus situation with resolved.

March 19: ich fell off, now showing stringy slime with white dots (brook?) also not pooping (IP?) Did a FW dip for the hell of it.

March 21: ich fell off, kept parameters. Ammonia high so did 50% WC and redosed copper to .50. Bought API gen cure and fin/body to treat after fish returned to normal habits And eating.

March 22-26: ich has not reattached, did MANY WC, kept coppersafe 1.0, ammonia is out of control. Checking with API and ammonia badge. Fish is playful and eating.

March 26: before bed, saw fish acting erratically, bumping into walls, still light sensitive, did not want to eat. Ammonia badge reading .50 so I did a 50% WC.

Present: I’m about to give up and re home this fish. He puffed up after I turned on the light on accident and is just laying in the sand. I don’t know what else to do. He’s still breathing rapidly. I have no idea how to continue. During QT process I’ve been attempting to maintain copper levels, but ammonia sky rockets and fish seems in distress. I have not been able to keep copper above 1.0 without fish acting like he’s dying. I also have already completed 2 doses of API general cure, and API Fin & Body (on 3rd dose of 2 part treatment). The reason I treated with this was from reading forums and on here. Coppersafe and these meds are compatible and I’ve followed all directions perfectly, doing almost 1 25-50% WC everyday.

Fish Diet: I’ve tried frozen mysis, shrimp, every method of feeding. He’s only interested in freeze dried krill… trying to give more variety.

Overall: I’m not sure how to continue. He pooped brown/pink yesterday and was eating non stop. His belly got full but then the just throws it up. He seems to be okay right now but Idk how to approach the ammonia situation. Visibly he looks to be normal after everything, but he still has a yellow discoloration on his back. Any advice? I’m so desperate.

After I brought him home

Ich at it’s worst

Today, no ich but still seems unwell

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

In longer term problems, it can be difficult to pin down the specific issues. In looking at your case, I see two possibilities: uncontrolled ammonia and lingering ich (Coppersafe needs to be dosed much higher than 0.50 - the full dose as listed on the bottle will test out at 2.25 to 2.5 with a good test kit.)

Water changes alone do not control ammonia well; Let's say ammonia is building at 1 ppm in 48 hours (common in a small QT). You change 50% of the water, and that takes the ammonia to 0.50 ppm, but it will be back to 1 ppm in 24 hours. You need to seed the system with beneficial bacteria - either from an established, disease free tank, or one of the bacteria in a bottle products like turbo start or Dr. Tim's. In an emergency situation, you can add liquid ammonia removers like Novaqua or Prime.

What is the current ammonia level?
Can you post a short video of the puffer, I want to see its respiration rate.....

Jay

 

[sucker4puffers]

Piorcupines dont do well with copper not that it can be used.
Treament should have been at copper level 2.25-2.5. Copper of .25 is little to nothing and should have been at salinity 1.024-1.025 at 80 degrees. What copper test kit are you using?

Ammonia badges as well as API test kits are very unreliable and often produce false reading disappointing many reefers. Water change will be needed as badge reading is likely higher.
What foods are you feeding ? This fish needs meaty foods such as krill, shrimp, squid, clam, etc

Coppersafe is best copper remedy and do not mix with general cure and if general cure, fin rot treatment NOT needed. Were you using a copper test kit ?

Yes I am using the API copper test kit. I’ve tried to attempt going over 2.0 of copper with coppersafe but it seemed that fish was not tolerating well with other medications. I am done using any other meds though because of the complexity … it’s my first time doing a QT with meds. I will give the puffer a few days with just copper and see how it goes. I’m also waiting on a Hanna copper so I can use that for the duration of the time in QT. Thanks.

 

[sucker4puffers]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

In longer term problems, it can be difficult to pin down the specific issues. In looking at your case, I see two possibilities: uncontrolled ammonia and lingering ich (Coppersafe needs to be dosed much higher than 0.50 - the full dose as listed on the bottle will test out at 2.25 to 2.5 with a good test kit.)

Water changes alone do not control ammonia well; Let's say ammonia is building at 1 ppm in 48 hours (common in a small QT). You change 50% of the water, and that takes the ammonia to 0.50 ppm, but it will be back to 1 ppm in 24 hours. You need to seed the system with beneficial bacteria - either from an established, disease free tank, or one of the bacteria in a bottle products like turbo start or Dr. Tim's. In an emergency situation, you can add liquid ammonia removers like Novaqua or Prime.

What is the current ammonia level?
Can you post a short video of the puffer, I want to see its respiration rate.....

Jay

Yes I am going to take a video of him now. Seems he’s tolerating food (still just krill, I’ve tried to force feed him other foods to no avail) and acting normal today. I’ve dosed 5mL of Prime before bed and it looks like it’s worked a bit.

 

[sucker4puffers]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

In longer term problems, it can be difficult to pin down the specific issues. In looking at your case, I see two possibilities: uncontrolled ammonia and lingering ich (Coppersafe needs to be dosed much higher than 0.50 - the full dose as listed on the bottle will test out at 2.25 to 2.5 with a good test kit.)

Water changes alone do not control ammonia well; Let's say ammonia is building at 1 ppm in 48 hours (common in a small QT). You change 50% of the water, and that takes the ammonia to 0.50 ppm, but it will be back to 1 ppm in 24 hours. You need to seed the system with beneficial bacteria - either from an established, disease free tank, or one of the bacteria in a bottle products like turbo start or Dr. Tim's. In an emergency situation, you can add liquid ammonia removers like Novaqua or Prime.

What is the current ammonia level?
Can you post a short video of the puffer, I want to see its respiration rate.....

Jay

Yes I am going to take a video of him now. Seems he’s tolerating food (still just krill, I’ve tried to force feed him other foods to no avail) and acting normal today. I’ve dosed 5mL of Prime before bed and it looks like it’s worked a bit.

I would do hyposalinity with a porcupine. Hope The little guy can pull through. Have you tried feeding fresh claims or fresh shrimp?

Yes, now that he seems a little better I’m going to try again today.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes I am using the API copper test kit. I’ve tried to attempt going over 2.0 of copper with coppersafe but it seemed that fish was not tolerating well with other medications. I am done using any other meds though because of the complexity … it’s my first time doing a QT with meds. I will give the puffer a few days with just copper and see how it goes. I’m also waiting on a Hanna copper so I can use that for the duration of the time in QT. Thanks.

hate to be negative - API copper kit not precise.
You mentioned force feeding the puffer other foods. This may be contributing to higher ammonia. With the case of krill, a little food is better than none at all.
Reducing food total reduces waste and in turn ammonia levels. Also, wait a few hours after water change to test levels as you will with any kit get a different reading.
These are not good first fish but rather for an established tank - one where the numbers are stable.

 

[Spardas]

Can you get a Hanna checker for copper? How big is the QT?

Ditto on getting bacteria bottle as Jay recommended. Rocks will just make it harder to maintain stable copper levels unless you want to test often.

But seeing you're not even at the correct copper level yet to maintain 30 days to eradicate ich, any thoughts on hyposalinity?

The reason being is you're trying to finish cycling the QT and keeping ammonia while simultaneously trying to reach the proper copper level. It just makes things more difficult without the proper measuring equipments. Not to mention you're not going to know how your puffer will react when copper does get to the correct level even if you gradually increase it. It most likely will be fine but in the off case you get a super sensitive puffer, it may be better just to go with hyposalinity now.

Then you won't have to worry about copper and just get a good hydrometer for salinity. Then you can change water as much as needed to keep ammonia down until tank is cycled. Then if you still want to run copper, you can combine hypo and copper and see how your puffer will react as you increase the copper concentration each day.

 

[sucker4puffers]

Can you get a Hanna checker for copper? How big is the QT?

Ditto on getting bacteria bottle as Jay recommended. Rocks will just make it harder to maintain stable copper levels unless you want to test often.

But seeing you're not even at the correct copper level yet to maintain 30 days to eradicate ich, any thoughts on hyposalinity?

The reason being is you're trying to finish cycling the QT and keeping ammonia while simultaneously trying to reach the proper copper level. It just makes things more difficult without the proper measuring equipments. Not to mention you're not going to know how your puffer will react when copper does get to the correct level even if you gradually increase it. It most likely will be fine but in the off case you get a super sensitive puffer, it may be better just to go with hyposalinity now.

Then you won't have to worry about copper and just get a good hydrometer for salinity. Then you can change water as much as needed to keep ammonia down until tank is cycled. Then if you still want to run copper, you can combine hypo and copper and see how your puffer will react as you increase the copper concentration each day.

Thank you for the info

Can you get a Hanna checker for copper? How big is the QT?

Ditto on getting bacteria bottle as Jay recommended. Rocks will just make it harder to maintain stable copper levels unless you want to test often.

But seeing you're not even at the correct copper level yet to maintain 30 days to eradicate ich, any thoughts on hyposalinity?

The reason being is you're trying to finish cycling the QT and keeping ammonia while simultaneously trying to reach the proper copper level. It just makes things more difficult without the proper measuring equipments. Not to mention you're not going to know how your puffer will react when copper does get to the correct level even if you gradually increase it. It most likely will be fine but in the off case you get a super sensitive puffer, it may be better just to go with hyposalinity now.

Then you won't have to worry about copper and just get a good hydrometer for salinity. Then you can change water as much as needed to keep ammonia down until tank is cycled. Then if you still want to run copper, you can combine hypo and copper and see how your puffer will react as you increase the copper concentration each day.

Update: got my Hanna Copper today with a reading of 1.15 after a 50% WC. Right now running the QT with coppersafe and hyposalinity. I’ve dosed the copper to 2.0 and will check tomorrow to make sure it’s above 2.0. Once it is I will start my 30 day countdown. I also added a UV sterilizer. I am using a Fluval 13.5 Evo. Thanks everyone for the help, the porky is playful and doing great!