Silly questions from a first timer

[Be102]

Hi all

I am going to take the plunge in the next few days to start to do a fallow period in my tank and I just had some silly questions that I can't seem to figure out.

I currently have mixed inverts /snails and corals in my tank and just two clown fish. I believe one of the clownfish has ich and I think they have had it for just about their whole life-span in my tank.. If thats possible?

My plan is to take the fish out as soon as I can and transfer them to a makeshift quarantine tank for the time being. I think at first this 'qt tank' will ultimately be a bucket with a heater and a small powerhead.

I intend to do dosing down the line for them, but since the fallow period is my priority right now I will just remove them until I can truly understand what to do and how to qt them. I might try to do the TTM with two buckets and then allow them to live in a bucket or something until my tank's fallow period is over.

So what exactly does fallow mean? Does it just mean to allow my tank to operate as I normally would with just no fish? The tank has been set up for a few years now and I have a sump with tons of pods and whatnot so I feel everything will work out ok. I don't have to attempt to remove anything else besides the fish?

During this period with the tank fallow, I intended on really improving my aquascape and have a better understanding of my rock and its health. I think at the end of the process I will be happy with the results and happy that my fish whom have been with me for a very long time will be healthy again.


My list of things to purchase for the treatment plan is

2 buckets or 10 gallon tanks
2 heaters
airstone
powerhead (maybe 2?)
medicine? (prazipro? do I get this on amazon or somewhere specific? I know there are different types made by different companies.

An on-tank- little acclimation box thing that allows me to closer examine the fish. I Think I intend to try a freshwater dip on both of the fish as well prior to the treatments

Am I missing stuff? Other than the actual plan for medication? I know there are tons of threads here to find that stuff and I imagine questions will arise as that step comes.

Do I have to do anything to eradicate anything in my tank other than just going fallow (which allows corals / inverts) ?


Sorry for such a long post.. all over the place and trying to figure it all out.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi all

I am going to take the plunge in the next few days to start to do a fallow period in my tank and I just had some silly questions that I can't seem to figure out.

I currently have mixed inverts /snails and corals in my tank and just two clown fish. I believe one of the clownfish has ich and I think they have had it for just about their whole life-span in my tank.. If thats possible?

My plan is to take the fish out as soon as I can and transfer them to a makeshift quarantine tank for the time being. I think at first this 'qt tank' will ultimately be a bucket with a heater and a small powerhead.

I intend to do dosing down the line for them, but since the fallow period is my priority right now I will just remove them until I can truly understand what to do and how to qt them. I might try to do the TTM with two buckets and then allow them to live in a bucket or something until my tank's fallow period is over.

So what exactly does fallow mean? Does it just mean to allow my tank to operate as I normally would with just no fish? The tank has been set up for a few years now and I have a sump with tons of pods and whatnot so I feel everything will work out ok. I don't have to attempt to remove anything else besides the fish?

During this period with the tank fallow, I intended on really improving my aquascape and have a better understanding of my rock and its health. I think at the end of the process I will be happy with the results and happy that my fish whom have been with me for a very long time will be healthy again.


My list of things to purchase for the treatment plan is

2 buckets or 10 gallon tanks
2 heaters
airstone
powerhead (maybe 2?)
medicine? (prazipro? do I get this on amazon or somewhere specific? I know there are different types made by different companies.

An on-tank- little acclimation box thing that allows me to closer examine the fish. I Think I intend to try a freshwater dip on both of the fish as well prior to the treatments

Am I missing stuff? Other than the actual plan for medication? I know there are tons of threads here to find that stuff and I imagine questions will arise as that step comes.

Do I have to do anything to eradicate anything in my tank other than just going fallow (which allows corals / inverts) ?


Sorry for such a long post.. all over the place and trying to figure it all out.

Yes sir...fallow means fishless.

The fallow period for ich 72-76 days. It’s likely to be ich free much much quicker than that, but this is worst case scenario.

You need two sets of equipment for the transfers or you can use one set and sterilize with bleach inbetween.

Copper Power is a great medication for ich with the clowns. Or you can just transfer. Transfer on day 1, 4, 7, 10, 13 done.

I do both at the same time with 100% success rate. Doing both increases your odds.

Best of luck!

 

[Old Fritz]

Prazipro doesnt treat ich. The best treatment method is copper which clowns are a little sensitive too. Fallow means letting the tank run normally just no fish. Do not add any copper into your dt as it will kill your inverts. If you do switch the tank the clowns are in everyday you shouldnt need to dose with copper if done correctly.

 

[DLHDesign]

Buck of great questions. Let's get at them;

Yes - it's quite possible for some fish in an infected tank to show no visible signs. Each fish - much like each human - has a different immune system strength. It's unlikely, however, that just because a fish is showing no visible symptoms that they are parasite-free. A good assumption is that if one fish in a tank is sick with a parasite - all fish in (or even near) that tank have it.

Your plan seems solid. Buckets can certainly make adequate QT containers, but I would suggest that 10gal tanks are even better - and at only a slight bit more cost, are worth the spend. This is because it will be hard to observe fish in a bucket; whereas fish in a tank are far easier. Observation is key during any QT process (to look for injury, sign of distress, eating habits, etc.), so this is not just a "looks nicer on the counter" consideration (though there's that as well).

"Fallow" can mean different things, but in the context of reef care, it almost always means "without fish (but with everything else)". The parasites that are being eradicated in a fallow tank require a fish host during their lifecycle - snails, corals, etc. won't cut it. By letting a tank sit long enough (generally 76 days is best) without fish, you force all the parasites (in whatever stage they are currently at) to progress to the "find a host" stage. Without a host in the tank, the parasites die off. Short of dramatic steps (nuking the tank with bleach, etc.), there isn't really any way currently to guarantee to cure a tank of these parasites (such as marine ich) without this fallow period.
Note that ich specifically can transfer from one tank to the next via aerosol transmission (e.g.; through the air). For that reason, you'll want your QT tanks to be at least 10ft away from your DT. And - obviously - never put your hands into either tank without washing/drying them. I myself have gone through 40+ days of a fallow tank only to cross-contaminate it in a careless moment... >-(

I would add a few (2-3) ammonia alert badges to your list of supplies. These are the easiest and best way to simply and cheaply monitor a QT tank for the highest-risk; ammonia. Along the same lines, having a supply of Seachem Prime on hand can help to knock down any ammonia spikes; buying you time to get new saltwater mixed up and changed out.

Good luck. Take things easy and ask any questions you have - we're all happy to help here!

 

[Be102]

So is no medication being used at all when utilizing the tank transfer method? Or is it just the action of cleaning and sanitizing that helps the fish?

I assume I cannot use tank water from my tank to the qt tank considering they can be free-swimmers there as well?

Would a freshwater dip be useless if I don’t have flukes?

 

[Old Fritz]

Fw dips dont work when ich is actually attached to a fish.

You dont need to treat during the tank transfer method because when the ich falls off you change the tank it is in and by removing the water in the tank and cleaning it, it kills the ich

 

[Be102]

Fw dips dont work when ich is actually attached to a fish.

You dont need to treat during the tank transfer method because when the ich falls off you change the tank it is in and by removing the water in the tank and cleaning it, it kills the ich

Wow that’s awesome. So ideally I can remove fish, get two setups for the ttm and just go fallow and let the clowns hang in one of the transfer tanks until 76 days are up? I just need to have them somewhere other than within 10 feet of my tank.

What’s the process for “ sanitizing” ? The transfer tanks and or the equipment I use. It’s a bleach to water solution and then I just let it air dry?

Could I even possibly do the tank transfer within a set of say 4 buckets I use to dispose water with?

So sanitizing would be easier because it would just be all new equipment?

 

[Old Fritz]

Here's a good thread about the ttm. They cover it pretty well and are more coherent than me haha.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/

 

[DLHDesign]

FW dips can help provide relief from more than just ich - flukes and other things. If the fish are looking healthy enough, I would add a FW dip into the start of the TTM. This can help a little not only with attached ich, but also sort out if you may be facing other problems. Better to find out sooner than later, basically. If done properly (temperature match, well oxygenated, etc.), then there is little risk in a freshwater bath.

You've got the right idea, yeah - TTM + fallow for 76 days on the DT and you should be good in terms of ich.

You use vinegar (which can be diluted some) to clean the gear you swapped out (tanks/buckets, pumps, heater, anything you're using for cover, etc.). And yes; let it dry completely as well - which means don't reuse sponges or the like as these can't dry fast enough.
Buckets are fine for TTM if that's what you need to use. So long as the buckets have been dried fully, you shouldn't have to do anything special to sanitize them.

The link above has what you need; yup!

 

[Old Fritz]

FW dips can help provide relief from more than just ich - flukes and other things. If the fish are looking healthy enough, I would add a FW dip into the start of the TTM. This can help a little not only with attached ich, but also sort out if you may be facing other problems. Better to find out sooner than later, basically. If done properly (temperature match, well oxygenated, etc.), then there is little risk in a freshwater bath.

You've got the right idea, yeah - TTM + fallow for 76 days on the DT and you should be good in terms of ich.

You use vinegar (which can be diluted some) to clean the gear you swapped out (tanks/buckets, pumps, heater, anything you're using for cover, etc.). And yes; let it dry completely as well - which means don't reuse sponges or the like as these can't dry fast enough.
Buckets are fine for TTM if that's what you need to use. So long as the buckets have been dried fully, you shouldn't have to do anything special to sanitize them.

The link above has what you need; yup!

Fw dips realistically dont have any effect on ich, and puts more stress on the fish than what is necessary. even doing the perfect fw dip still stresses the fish and I don't think its worth it

 

[DLHDesign]

I agree that a FW dip is unlikely to help much (if any at all) with ich - I think I implied that in my previous post, but did not mean to. Given that the OP here started with a report of something that may (or may not) be ich, it remains my suggestion that a FW dip can help to identify if the problem is - in fact - not ich, but something else. Even if it is ich and the FW dip does nothing for that, it may bring other problems to light. Better to treat the fish while they are in QT for everything they have rather than discover some other problem once they are back in the DT after all the effort of a fallow run.

I also agree that a FW dip stresses fish. So does moving them from one tank to the other. So does having them in a glass box. We can't avoid stressing fish in this hobby, unfortunately. And while we should do our best to not needlessly add to this stress, sometimes a small bit of stress up front can prevent a large amount of it down the road... To each their own, of course - we all care for our fish in the way we feel is best.

 

[Be102]

I am taking the first step for a healthier tank today and will be picking up the following equipment to utilize in both my qt tank (10 g) and just wanted some clarification on if this is adequate.

I will be doing a combination of both starting a qt tank and also doing the TTM using two 5 gallon buckets for my clown fish. I think this would work best for both water conservation, ease of cleaning and so forth.

I intend to get

4 5 gallon buckets ( 4 because i intend to alternate to ensure no transfer of ich, also buckets are great to have around anyways)
2 heaters ( 5g-20g wattage)
2 thermometers
1 ammonia alert badge
2 90* angle pvc
Prime
maybe a little powerhead?
Can someone explain to me how airstones work? sounds kinda silly but I am thinking they work like so

Pump outside of tank w airline tubing in tank with the little block thing that creates the bubbles. Allowing the actual pump to never get wet because its just pumping air?
A lot of the qt threads I have read seem to say to not reuse air stones and just get new ones cause the porosity inside of them, so like does that mean people also by new pumps or just new tubing and the little blocks at the end?

My plan is to set up a long time qt tank in my basement and then also treat my clowns in the ttm. I intend to let my clowns live in the new 10g qt until my tank has gone fallow for 76 days. Would I be better off setting up a larger qt overall despite only having a 65 gallon tank? I dont think any fish I will be getting will be too large to house in a 10g until my qt periods are over.


Can someone also explain why the period is required to do less than 72 hour cycles? I've read places that do cycles for example say 2x2x2x2x2x2 so 6 transfers total every two days. Is this just because the lifespan of the ich is constantly changing and this prevents it from rehatching?

 

[Rython]

I doubt your clowns would have any problem living in a 10g for a couple of months. If they start fighting, you can always separate them with eggcrate (just don't let it put pressure on the glass - I tore a 10g tank seam that way once).

I don't think you'll find very many people that do 2 day transfers. I think it's just over-cautious to make sure you don't go over 72 hours in a cycle. I actually think 48 hours transfers are LESS safe, unless you have 3 tanks, because it doesn't give you any flexibility with when you clean your equipment. You would have to clean the tank immediately after transfer so it can set out a day to dry and still have a day to sit dry before being used again (that's the requirement). In your case, since you will have so many "tanks" that risk doesn't really exist, but it's going to create extra work for you, and from the studies I read, there isn't an appreciable statistical advantage.

Just a couple of pro tips on TTM -
(1) dose prime on day 2 so you don't have to worry about ammonia build-up (unless you end up needing to medicate). If you medicate, or want truly bullet proof ammonia protection, seed a filter pad with bio-spira or any active bacteria denitrification product and put it in your power filter or wrap it around a powerhead with a rubberband. Active bacteria like bio-spira will start eliminating ammonia faster than your fish can produce it pretty much immediately.
(2) give yourself plenty of time to get the water temp and salinity matched before you do the transfer, this matters a lot, and if you're right up against the 72 hour window you might be tempted to transfer into unmatched water.
(3) make sure you have good oxygen exchange - either the waterfall from a power filter, a powerhead pointed at the water surface for agitation, or a bubble stone. If you medicate, you probably want two or 3 of these options.

One other thing - during TTM, you can run an airstone instead of a powerhead. It will actually produce a little flow - just make sure the stone is at the bottom. I've done it many times without any issues. The one exception I would say is if your clowns appear to be breathing hard. If that's the case, the ich in their gills are probably causing excess mucuous production. A freshwater dip will clear the mucuous and will likely make an airstone for flow set-up sufficient, but it would be safer to have a small powerhead in that circumstance. Personally I stopped using airstones because they make a mess and have been using cheap powerheads instead.

 

[Rython]

How airstones work is actually a great question.

The bubbles don't directly infuse oxygen into the water. I think that's a misconception a lot of people have. Instead, when the bubbles break at the surface, it creates the agitation that causes the gas exchange. It's the same thing that happens in a waterfall from your power filter, or even from the rippling of the surface from a powerhead. The movement of the water ensures that (relatively) oxygen rich water near the surface is distributed elsewhere, and replaced by (relatively) oxygen poor water from the depths.

Airstones also create flow. As the bubbles rise, they push water away from them. This creates circular flow patterns around them in each direction, where the water pushes up towards the surface, across the surface to the wall, down the wall to the floor, back across the floor to the airstone to create the loops.

Bubbles also pop at the surface and splash water on everything nearby. So don't put it right next to a power outlet, source water, other tanks, etc.

Anything wet cannot be reused without first thoroughly drying out and laying out dry for another 24 hours. With airstones, they are so porous its impossible to ensure they are dry in time. They are cheap though so just use a new one each time. The tubing you MIGHT be able to get dry, but it is also cheap so why risk it. The pump does not get wet, so obviously you can re-use the same one every time.

 

[DLHDesign]

Can someone also explain why the period is required to do less than 72 hour cycles?

The brief answer is that the ich parasite goes through several known stages in it's lifecycle. One of those stages (the "encysted" stage) is when the parasite is detached from the fish and settled into a solid surface somewhere (rock, glass, pump, etc.). A given parasite will remain in this stage for no less than 72 hours, after which it will emerge into it's free-swimming stage and seek to re-attach to a fish. The 72 hour time limit of TTM is in place to allow these encysted parasites to be left behind (which is why it's important to sanitize and totally dry everything - to kill these encysted parasites).
The 14 day timeline comes from the full lifecycle of the parasite (or pieces of it, at least). The parasites will only remain attached to the fish for 14 days, so by repeating the TT every 72 hours (or less), by the final transfer no parasites are left on the fish, and no parasites are encysted. And because new water was used, there are no free-swimmers. Ergo; there are no more parasites. Yay!

Some people go less than 72 hours to be safe. This is a good idea - within reason. The 72-hour time limit is actually already a little conservative (odds are that most parasites will not emerge from being encysted right at 72 hours), but transferring a few hours early is an added bit of security. Doing a transfer a full 24 hours ahead of time seems excessive to me, personally, but there have been times when I've done it (work was busy the next day, family day at the zoo, etc.). Only thing it "hurts" is that it's more work and uses more supplies.

 

[Be102]

The brief answer is that the ich parasite goes through several known stages in it's lifecycle. One of those stages (the "encysted" stage) is when the parasite is detached from the fish and settled into a solid surface somewhere (rock, glass, pump, etc.). A given parasite will remain in this stage for no less than 72 hours, after which it will emerge into it's free-swimming stage and seek to re-attach to a fish. The 72 hour time limit of TTM is in place to allow these encysted parasites to be left behind (which is why it's important to sanitize and totally dry everything - to kill these encysted parasites).
The 14 day timeline comes from the full lifecycle of the parasite (or pieces of it, at least). The parasites will only remain attached to the fish for 14 days, so by repeating the TT every 72 hours (or less), by the final transfer no parasites are left on the fish, and no parasites are encysted. And because new water was used, there are no free-swimmers. Ergo; there are no more parasites. Yay!

Some people go less than 72 hours to be safe. This is a good idea - within reason. The 72-hour time limit is actually already a little conservative (odds are that most parasites will not emerge from being encysted right at 72 hours), but transferring a few hours early is an added bit of security. Doing a transfer a full 24 hours ahead of time seems excessive to me, personally, but there have been times when I've done it (work was busy the next day, family day at the zoo, etc.). Only thing it "hurts" is that it's more work and uses more supplies.

Thank you Dave for all the thoughtful and clear responses !

 

[DLHDesign]

1 ammonia alert badge

I would double this, at least. The badge also needs to dry between each transfer, and you'll want it in each tank from the start. The cost of a badge is worth the savings it provides, IMO.

The key to all of this is in the transfer, so it's important to get that right. Do your best to limit the amount of water that gets transferred between the two tanks, for example. I use a plastic strainer to move the fish from one tank to the next, and allow the fish to drip for just a moment before adding them to the new tank. Not enough to dry them out or anything (they are fish, after all), but you wouldn't want to scoop them out using a bowl or the like - too much water would transfer that way.

 

[Be102]

I would double this, at least. The badge also needs to dry between each transfer, and you'll want it in each tank from the start. The cost of a badge is worth the savings it provides, IMO.

The key to all of this is in the transfer, so it's important to get that right. Do your best to limit the amount of water that gets transferred between the two tanks, for example. I use a plastic strainer to move the fish from one tank to the next, and allow the fish to drip for just a moment before adding them to the new tank. Not enough to dry them out or anything (they are fish, after all), but you wouldn't want to scoop them out using a bowl or the like - too much water would transfer that way.

I actually have one of those plastic strainers I know exactly what you are describing. Lol I can picture us reefers attempting to dry a fish before transferring.. we do some strange stuff.
I am just not really understanding what’s the difference from air drying to say like leaving it outside in 30* weather where it would dry rather fast. I intend to ultimately have two of everything. The reason for not having 2 badges was I assumed I wouldn’t really use one in my 5 gallon bucket transfers but I might.

For future qt, what’s the best setup for like long term until my tank has run fallow? I can’t seed a sponge in my tank water now considering I will then transfer itch to my qt. Could I just use the bacteria in a bottle to just try to get my qt setup as ideal as possible for the remaining 2 months?

 

[DLHDesign]

Could I just use the bacteria in a bottle to just try to get my qt setup as ideal as possible for the remaining 2 months?

This is what I do, yeah.