Sixty’s Ecosystem Build

[minorhero]

All of my experience is in freshwater, I've never run a saltwater tank before (just started the cycle of my first saltwater tank this morning). I will be very interested to see how this works for you. Normally I would say an under gravel filter and dirt is straight up a non starter, but I'll admit I've never attempted it.

The few times I've done a dirt tank I've also used a much thinner layer of dirt then what you have and wished I had gone even less. Your tank does not look very deep but typically I would recommend 2 to 3 inches of sand ontop of a dirt layer that deep in a freshwater tank. The absolute bare minimum is 1 inch but I have found that inadequate. I hope it works out for you and if it does, will be very interested to see your results!

 

[sixty_reefer]

All of my experience is in freshwater, I've never run a saltwater tank before (just started the cycle of my first saltwater tank this morning). I will be very interested to see how this works for you. Normally I would say an under gravel filter and dirt is straight up a non starter, but I'll admit I've never attempted it.

The few times I've done a dirt tank I've also used a much thinner layer of dirt then what you have and wished I had gone even less. Your tank does not look very deep but typically I would recommend 2 to 3 inches of sand ontop of a dirt layer that deep in a freshwater tank. The absolute bare minimum is 1 inch but I have found that inadequate. I hope it works out for you and if it does, will be very interested to see your results!

You won’t regret it saltwater it’s very interesting due to crazy life forms that aren’t available on FW, hopefully you will have a nice easy start.
regarding the substrate your absolutely righ, although in my head it kinda works, I just need to test it to see how it develops. We never use compost in marines although there is something quite similar known as miracle mud. The main downside for me is that it can’t be kept long therm as it turns into a sludge after a few years. Am hoping this substrate will last for as long as the tank.

 

[minorhero]

You won’t regret it saltwater it’s very interesting due to crazy life forms that aren’t available on FW, hopefully you will have a nice easy start.
regarding the substrate your absolutely righ, although in my head it kinda works, I just need to test it to see how it develops. We never use compost in marines although there is something quite similar known as miracle mud. The main downside for me is that it can’t be kept long therm as it turns into a sludge after a few years. Am hoping this substrate will last for as long as the tank.

Well in freshwater most tanks do not stay up and running for longer then 4 years without a refresh. There are a few that are documented longer then that with dirt substrates, BUT to my knowledge none that don't also use fertilizer of some type. Dirt tanks with no fertilizer input either have very few plants, or frankly do not do well after the first year or 2. The dirt being good only until the first essential element needed for plant growth runs out. What dirt does bring to the party is a very high CEC value so it can be 'recharged' through regular use of fertilizer. But, the same can be said for clay or probably the 'mud' that gets used in saltwater. The idea of putting in substrate and then having plant growth for years and years without further additions beyond fish poop is attractive, but I have yet to see it done in an enviable way in reality.

The tank I am building right now will be a seagrass tank. I am planning daily dose of fertilizer using the pps-pro method which I have used successfully in freshwater. The advantage there is that the water will not contain excess nutrients not needed for plant growth. I personally have sworn off dirt tanks as there really is no advantage to using them in freshwater systems compared to something like aquasoil other then cost. And the 20 dollars difference between some dirt and a bag of aquasoil is not enough to put up with the problems they bring to the party.

That is not to say you can't find success with dirt in your tank, but personally I would temper expectations slightly, or consider fertilizer at some point down the road.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Well in freshwater most tanks do not stay up and running for longer then 4 years without a refresh. There are a few that are documented longer then that with dirt substrates, BUT to my knowledge none that don't also use fertilizer of some type. Dirt tanks with no fertilizer input either have very few plants, or frankly do not do well after the first year or 2. The dirt being good only until the first essential element needed for plant growth runs out. What dirt does bring to the party is a very high CEC value so it can be 'recharged' through regular use of fertilizer. But, the same can be said for clay or probably the 'mud' that gets used in saltwater. The idea of putting in substrate and then having plant growth for years and years without further additions beyond fish poop is attractive, but I have yet to see it done in an enviable way in reality.

The tank I am building right now will be a seagrass tank. I am planning daily dose of fertilizer using the pps-pro method which I have used successfully in freshwater. The advantage there is that the water will not contain excess nutrients not needed for plant growth. I personally have sworn off dirt tanks as there really is no advantage to using them in freshwater systems compared to something like aquasoil other then cost. And the 20 dollars difference between some dirt and a bag of aquasoil is not enough to put up with the problems they bring to the party.

That is not to say you can't find success with dirt in your tank, but personally I would temper expectations slightly, or consider fertilizer at some point down the road.

Am really jealous, I’d love to get my hands on some sea grass one day, I’ve wanted so much that I actually offer my lfs the same as a gold torch if they could get me some. You will need to share the link for your tank build.

in the marine environment besides sea grass, substrate is not that important as long as algae’s got nutrients and trace they will grow on a glass box, what I expect from the soil is a place for micro life like pods to rapidly reproduce and if it holds its consistency that will be a good bonus. Dirt is much lighter than sand, hence easier for really small life to make burrows and reproduce. I’m addition it may help with water polishing, soon to find out lol

 

[minorhero]

Am really jealous, I’d love to get my hands on some sea grass one day, I’ve wanted so much that I actually offer my lfs the same as a gold torch if they could get me some. You will need to share the link for your tank build.

in the marine environment besides sea grass, substrate is not that important as long as algae’s got nutrients and trace they will grow on a glass box, what I expect from the soil is a place for micro life like pods to rapidly reproduce and if it holds its consistency that will be a good bonus. Dirt is much lighter than sand, hence easier for really small life to make burrows and reproduce. I’m addition it may help with water polishing, soon to find out lol

Excited to see this progress!

Link for my build to the left. I have found a few places for seagrass. I am considering these two right now:

Aquaticus Plants

marine plants for sale that can be used in aquariums and also for ecological restoration projects. Saltwater and Freshwater plants are available for purchase.

aquaticusplants.com

live aquarium store

aquarium store

tropicalfishplus.com

 

[sixty_reefer]

Excited to see this progress!

Link for my build to the left. I have found a few places for seagrass. I am considering these two right now:

Aquaticus Plants

marine plants for sale that can be used in aquariums and also for ecological restoration projects. Saltwater and Freshwater plants are available for purchase.

aquaticusplants.com

live aquarium store

aquarium store

tropicalfishplus.com

I looked at those before, the one from the first link was actually interesting in shipping to the UK but only in bulk. They do they’re own aquaculture

 

[minorhero]

I looked at those before, the one from the first link was actually interesting in shipping to the UK but only in bulk. They do they’re own aquaculture

Ah I hadn't realized you were in the uk. That will definitely make everything harder. Your best bet in getting some is probably coming up, in that seagrass tends to be seasonal and collecting wild stuff at the high tide mark after a storm is where some folks get it.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Ah I hadn't realized you were in the uk. That will definitely make everything harder. Your best bet in getting some is probably coming up, in that seagrass tends to be seasonal and collecting wild stuff at the high tide mark after a storm is where some folks get it.

I was in Florida two years ago, and I saw loads of seagrass in the islands we been, though for as much as I love it and wanted it, it’s not worth the bigger risk.

 

[sixty_reefer]

It’s filled, it’s actually not too bad I thought it would be much more dirty and cloudy.
I haven’t added the rock yet as not fully ready.
Will be taking some readings shortly and start dosing ammonia to kickstart things.

 

[sixty_reefer]

I’ve tested all this morning after dosing dr.timdand my results were

nh4 3 ppm
No2 0,2 ppm
No3 1 ppm
Po4 0.2

this are probably the worst initial testing I’ve done so far wile setting a tank wasn’t expecting to see the high po4 this early in the cycling. Kinda makes me think that I will have to break it down sooner that I was thinking.

 

[sixty_reefer]

The air pump gone back in the shed, was really doing my head last night with the noise and I could see that in no time the tank would be full of salt creep, I’ve looked around in the boxes of junk accumulated over the last few years and found a small pump to replace the air, and a small filter big enough to accommodate a bag of media to see if it’s possible to tackle the po4.

 

[minorhero]

The air pump gone back in the shed, was really doing my head last night with the noise and I could see that in no time the tank would be full of salt creep, I’ve looked around in the boxes of junk accumulated over the last few years and found a small pump to replace the air, and a small filter big enough to accommodate a bag of media to see if it’s possible to tackle the po4.

Is the dirt directly exposed to the water column with no cap?

 

[sixty_reefer]

Is the dirt directly exposed to the water column with no cap?

Yes, I’ve used it as last layer

 

[sixty_reefer]

Interest update ( at list for me) the aquatic dirt as just processed 3ppm of dr.Tim’s ammonium chloride in just under 11 hours, I’ve not seen this happening before on a tank cycling process.

This morning

Now (11 hours later)

 

[minorhero]

Yes, I’ve used it as last layer

This is likely your issue. This is never done in freshwater for the reason you are discovering. Typically dirt is the lowest layer with an inert fine grained cap (usually sand but sometimes fine gravel) ontop. The reason being that you want to trap as much of the nutrients in the substrate as possible and keep it out of the water column.

I'm not surprised its essentially already cycled though. Dirt tanks usually are loaded with beneficial bacteria in the dirt itself. Most of them cycle very quickly in freshwater, if your compost was already wet before you put it in the tank, it had that much longer to gain a cycle, and it produces its own ammonia to get the job done.

 

[sixty_reefer]

This is likely your issue. This is never done in freshwater for the reason you are discovering. Typically dirt is the lowest layer with an inert fine grained cap (usually sand but sometimes fine gravel) ontop. The reason being that you want to trap as much of the nutrients in the substrate as possible and keep it out of the water column.

I'm not surprised its essentially already cycled though. Dirt tanks usually are loaded with beneficial bacteria in the dirt itself. Most of them cycle very quickly in freshwater, if your compost was already wet before you put it in the tank, it had that much longer to gain a cycle, and it produces its own ammonia to get the job done.

Most likely something I’ve done, am always messing with stuff, it’s not fully cycled yet but it’s interesting that it’s processing off the scale ammonium. There’s a thread on here that done quite extensive research on bacteria and live rock, just not seen numbers like this for day one. Definitely full of bacteria on the compost, it was sold damp.
Hopefully will aid with the end goal of a small ecosystem.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Tank was reading 0ppm on no2 and 0ppm nh4 this morning, went a head and put my two damsel in and started adding some of the life I intend to have on this ecosystem, pods from my outside culture and river shrimps, they got straight away to cleaning the substrate.

 

[sixty_reefer]

The water got fairly yellow on the last 48 hours done a water change, will do a few more over the week. I suspect tannin from the few pieces of wood mixed in the compost.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Week 1 update

the tank is much clear now after a few water changes dealing with tannins on a saltwater tank was something I never thought I’d be doing. Hopefully that will be it.
I wanted to keep the full set up at 3 plugs max, that went down the drain for now as I had to any a small wave maker to increase flow, surprisingly the compost stays strong and doesn’t lift into the water column.
the only thing am not seeing so far is the diatoms or if I do it’s very lightly, I’ve started with all dead rock and sand.

regarding life in the ecosystem I’ve started with copepods and river shrimps, awesome substrate cleaners my list will be long as I keep my eye open for more, already looking at a really interesting pice of rock from the lfs full of sponges and bivalves. My biggest worries and the reason I’d be quarantining for the first time ever since I’ve started the hobby is to keep amphipods out of the system, imo they are the worst thing to have as they destroy all small life in a tank.

Last update is on my macros, been hunting for a few hitchhikers from local LFS and I think I’ve got to a really good start.
with some really interesting and unusual species.

 

[sixty_reefer]

Jinx myself in the previous post, diatoms are in full bloom