Skimmer - Absolutely Necessary?

[Maniacodesrecifs]

The new Dutch filter system Dymico don't use any skimmer, reactor or supplements: https://www.facebook.com/dymico/ with 25w consumption...

 

[peterj66]

Dymico sounds like a very interesting system. Theres also an article about the dymico here : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/aafeature
In the article it says "Air stones may be used to prevent a decrease in pH and oxygen concentration of the water column, especially when stocking densities are high"
So if you remove the skimmer an air pump may be needed as a substitute for the removed skimmer.

 

[ksc]

A quick google search on skimmerless tanks should put all the above myths to rest. There are many pristine reef tanks out there not bothering with the inefficient, antiquated bubble tubes. You can check out Ken Feldman's scientific research that found just how inefficient skimmers are. A pinch of carbon and a filter sock will outperform any skimmer out there.


Granular Activated Carbon Pt 1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/1/aafeature1
Granular Activated Carbon Pt 2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/2/aafeature1
Total Organic Carbon Pt 1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/8/aafeature3
Total Organic Carbon Pt 2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/9/aafeature2
Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/1/aafeature2
Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/1/aafeature
Skimmate Analysis
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2010/2/aafeature
Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

 

[DSPENCE]

I have am EXTREMELY heavily stocked 30 gallon that runs with only a hang on filter and I use carbon along with weekly water changes to help pull organics out. I wonder if perhaps one has to be more careful of coral selection and the chemical warfare that goes on in the tank without one?

 

[TheEngineer]

As to icecool2 's thought, I remember bout 16 years and a few hundred beers ago, 4 of us were looking at the "new" downdraft skimmers and we tested one on a 135 gallon loaded reef with a good O2 hand held with the skimmer running. In one hour after we unplugged the skimmer pump we logged a 25% reduction in O2!! I dont remember the exact reading but the reduction sure is embedded.
We were talking about the same thing with the cabinet only open in the back and there were a few of us that chimed in about heat from pumps etc added in the convection of air movement up out the back. Who said its not fun to over analogize things anyway, right?

Biology is not my thing, so I don't know if a 25% reduction in O2 levels is significant or not. Does that 25% drop mean levels are below optimum or does it mean they are closer to optimum with less head room? Does less O2 mean more CO2? If so, is it too much CO2?

 

[peterj66]

A quick google search on skimmerless tanks should put all the above myths to rest.

Exactly what myths are you claiming to put to rest. The myth of skimmers being essential, the myth of gasexchange between water and air, the myth that a skimmer is needed when carbon dosing, or where you thinking of something else entirely?
Of course you can run a reef tank without skimming, and you can also run a reef tank with skimming on for part of the day. None of the articles you link to says that skimming is unnecessary. Maybe its not a magic solution but I bet you could find ten pristine reefs using a skimmer as part of their water treatment for every one reef that doesn't. Combining a skimmer with biological filtration is a very effective and easy way to keep the water as clean as possible. If they could find a way to adapt the dymico system to hobbyist tank sizes it is another way of filtration that could be effective, but it still needs some bubbles for pH control if the load is heavy.

 

[Maniacodesrecifs]

Dymico is made to keep plankton in the tank espacially for NPS. They breed gorgones, sponges for the first time in a hobby tank with this system! Just an air stone for PH.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Skimmers are obviously not essential, but can be very useful, IMO.

Personally, I do not see anything especially exciting about the DYMICO method compared to other types of denitrators and CaCO3/CO2 reactors. I'm also not convinced it can provide very much calcium and alkalinity this way.

Finally, I'm not sure why this method is being compared to a skimmer. They accomplish different things.

Skimmers export organics and whole organisms (e.g., bacteria) and provide substantial aeration benefits. Metals and phosphate can be exported this way.

This method seems to focus on reducing nitrate and providing a small amount of calcium and alkalinity.

 

[Maniacodesrecifs]

Dymico is like a calcium reactor, the same way but in the sand you can take away PO4 and NO3 and liberate supplements for your water.

 

[RoyalGrammaJohn]

It's great to have a skimmer but you do not need to have one as long as your willing to keep up with the water changes. I have a 55 and I don't run a skimmer. Primarily because I don't have a sump and most hang on backs won't fit behind my tank. It's a low tech setup and because I do a 25% water change a week my nitrates get no higher than 3-4ppm by the next weekly water change. I have also noticed that the corals like to have a little nitrate in the tank and they look a little more colorful. If I had a skimmer I would bet I can get away without having to do weekly water changes or at least only do a 5-10%. As far as oxygen goes most of it comes from the surface area of the tank so as long as you have movement on the surface you will have sufficient oxygen levels. I run two marineland 350 penguins that pour right on the surface like a little water fall which keeps it moving. The left filter is holding the pads and chemi pure blue. And the right one with pads , poly filter , and GFO. Especially with products like those I just mentioned it makes it easier to get by without a skimmer. Now I would not recommend anything larger than a 55 without a skimmer because doing that large of a water change every week on a 75 or 150 or larger would just be a pain in the butt. But a 55 and smaller as long as some kind of weekly water change is being done and your tank is not overstocked with fish in my experience isn't a big deal.

 

[Nibejeebies]

The background is simply that the gasexchange taking place in the skimmer adjust the carbon dioxide contents of the water to equilibrium with the surrounding air. If you put a carbon dioxide cleaner on the skimmer air intake, thus reducing the amount of carbon dioxide in the bubbles, it will air out more carbon dioxide from the water. If you don't have proper gas exchange the carbon dioxide level will increase during the night and thus causing the pH to drop. Check out this thread for more info: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/an-easy-way-to-increase-your-tanks-ph-with-a-co2-scrubber.57609/
This has been tried and verified on the swedish reef forum where I normally hang out. You can of course counter the pH drop with a refugium lit on a reverse schedule, but in most cases it is not as effective as when used together with a skimmer.

In the words of Mr Spock..,... "Fascinating" Thank you for sharing the science Peter... Im geeking out a bit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Dymico is like a calcium reactor, the same way but in the sand you can take away PO4 and NO3 and liberate supplements for your water.

How do you think it is exporting phosphate?

 

[ReeferReefer]

Its conditional but the system needs to be set up around not having a skimmer. Over all I would recommend a skimmer over not having one. Even with a fuge and little skimmate I would say that it is worth its weight in gold.

 

[Tautog]

Peter, that's the simplest explanation I have read. Good going.

 

[Salt Creep]

I would not go without one, BUT you don't NEED one.

Getting a skimmer is more of a cost/benefit thing. In large tanks where you would be spending lots of money on salt to export nutrients with water changes consistently can get costly quick. A way around that is to spend more money on a skimmer and do less frequent, smaller water changes to save on salt. In the long run you will save money assuming your skimmer isn't a point of sale that breaks right away.

I just prefer to have something that is always running... the only thing besides a water change that actually REMOVES waste from the water.

 

[Dom]

Funny that I should come across this post...

The subject of protein skimmers was one of my intended posts. I won't get into it here, as I don't want to hijack the thread. But as to the subject of skimmers, ya or nay, I vote ya!

A skimmer can only HELP, so, why not have it?

 

[Cory]

of course everyone would use a skimmer, as long as your mr money bags. The best skimmers are 1000$ and up. Most tanks have not spent that on their tank, let alone a piece of plastic with bubbles.

Mine broke, and my ats does what a skimmer does just theough a different pathway. Nothing negative was perceived.

A skimmer remove particles. My ats removes very sMall particles (molecules). And oxygenates. And removes metals.

Personally i wouldnt waste money on a tiny skimmer, it needs to be tall.

 

[MiguelCS71]

I have a 125g and have a reef octopus 150. It's been running for over a year, close to 2 yrs. My tank has always been a FOWLR tank with a refugium, but after Reefapalooza, am now starting corals. In all this time, my skimmer has RARELY ever skimmed alot outta my tank. I have adjusted that thing out the wazoo & have yet to see an actual use of it! All I know is that it's noisy as hell!!!.....personally, I think that a real aquarist could easily run a marine tank without one. I still don't see the use for it and I have groupers!

 

[mazoli]

How do you think it is exporting phosphate?

Randy is right, dymico is almost a one-in-all solution, however it needs some extra "help": an extra aeriation chamber for gas exchange and also needs GFO (or other means of po4 reducing mechanism). In spite of all these Dymico produces some impressive results in plankton saving, the videos about dymico aquariums so far are convincing. We'll see in a few years if this solution gain ground or not.