skimmer helping with nutrients?

[Susan Edwards]

How old is your tank? ...from what I’ve read in your post on this thread, it seems like you are over reacting.... 100% water changes... taking your rock out.... stability, for the most part, comes from leaving as many thing ps as possible alone...

oh, sand is being removed as it is super fine #0 I think and it is in all the rocks. I want to get another sand sifting goby and it just makes a mess. So after tank sits a week or 2 with very little sand, I'll replace with a thin layer of medium sand that is easy to clean. You can't vacuum find sand, only turkey baste it which makes a mess

 

[Susan Edwards]

I’m curious about the amount of water you’ve changed. This could potentially reset your ecosystem and create whole other issues regarding levels, stability and the like.

In order to get sand out, that's been my only choice, as I can only make up new water at 30 gals each time. And take out same. I figure I'm doing about a 20% change each time. This after 2 years of maybe 2-3 a year. 2020 maybe just 1 before Sept. I have very few corals, (palys, mushrooms, & leathers) and fish. right now alk, cal and mg are good. We'll see if this ultimately made the system better or not. I was faced with reset/reboot or give it up.

 

[Susan Edwards]

Set up an algae scrubber, a diy one can cost as little as 30.00

I'll look into that. Got any good sites to recommend?

 

[Susan Edwards]

I had a similar problem this year. Phospates and nitrates continued to rise resulting in an algae bloom. I was running a reef octopus 110ss at that time. It was pulling out a good load of gunk. I also have a refugium which is lighted about 14 hrs per day.
The answer for me was a phosphate filter. I ran it for about a month, reduced feed and that solved the problem.

just fyi. Hope it helps.

I may look into this if we get my manifolds finished. I added back in new bag of chemi elite and phosguard

 

[Traplord]

not really but I feed very heavy carnivorous fish multiple times a day I can say that the skimmer does keep my ph up and stable which is way more important to me then nitrite/nitrate and phosphates

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The capacity of a skimmer to remove TOC ( Total Organic Carbon, including live bacteria, particulate organic compounds and DOC, Disolved Organic Compounds) is not very high, it has been shown to be max +- 30% and the difference between different types of skimmers in removing TOC is neglectable. If it comes to removing TOC and DOC, the biggest difference will be the price. Also the name" protein skimmer" is discussable as there is a lot of protein that may be present in TOC but there are not many proteins to remove by a skimmer, as Ronald L. Shimek has shown in 2002. (ref: MB CMF De Haes2018).

One must be aware that activating and stimulating fast exponential heterotrophic growth by adding organic carbon compounds ends up in exponential dead. The part not skimmed or and not consumed will be remineralized which means the bio-waste must first be transformed into DOC to be reused by microorganisms, this needs a lot of energy, dissimilation of previously produced sugars, the production of ammonia, phosphates, and CO2. It has been shown more ammonia and phosphate may be produced as used for cell synthesis and growth.
Adding carbohydrates ( vodka method) is not without risks and may kill corals. (ref:Makazi Baharini CMF De Haes 2018)
Adding organic carbon does not export nutrients and produces bio-load, which loads the bearing capacity. For example, to reduce the same amount of ammonium +- x 40 bacterial heterotrophic bioload must be produced as would be needed for bacterial autotrophic ammonium reduction. The stimulated high heterotrophic growth does also needs energy, for which it may find its carbon source in the supplemented organic carbon, released as CO2. This means the aquarium may become dependable on these supplements.

Using a good mechanical filter may be more effective in removing bio-wast and limit remineralization, for example in combination with harvesting biofloc. This way the presence of TOC can be limited without favoring selective growth.

A skimmer is very selective in removing organic compounds which may lead to the selective growth of organisms. Inorganic nutrients, produced by dissimilation and respiration, are left behind which, in a closed system, may lead to an unbalance between inorganic nutrients availability and other essential building materials.

The development of organic molecules absorbing polymers may become the future if it comes to controlling DOC.

A good reason to continue to use a skimmer may be its capacity to remove bio-toxins, but also for this aspect
it is not clear which toxins are removed and which is favored to stay.

 

[Susan Edwards]

@Belgian Anthias what would you consider a good mechanical filter?

 

[fishguy242]

ehiem 2217 w quick disconnects

 

[Susan Edwards]

Hmm, I have a cascade on my fresh water. Not sure I want a big canaster filter on the reef. No place to put it except outside. Will think of it. But some good newss. my nitrates went from over 160 to 40!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

not really but I feed very heavy carnivorous fish multiple times a day I can say that the skimmer does keep my ph up and stable which is way more important to me then nitrite/nitrate and phosphates

As far as I know, a skimmer does not export nitrite and nitrate.
Why do you tink your skimmer is responsible for keeping up the pH and for keeping the pH stable?

 

[fishguy242]

As far as I know, a skimmer does not export nitrite and nitrate.
Why do you tink your skimmer is responsible for keeping up the pH and for keeping the pH stable?

air intake

 

[Belgian Anthias]

@Belgian Anthias what would you consider a good mechanical filter?

Anything that holds back particulate TOC and can be cleaned easily.
When cleaned this includes the bio-load ( bacteria, micro- and macro-organisms) wich has colonised the debris. It must not nessacarely be expensive screens or socks, simple filter cotton will already trap a lot, Membranes may trap what is left over . If you want to go more technical, one can make it as exensive or and effective as one wants. We used sand and diatom filters. If waiting to long for cleaning or backwashing they change into remineralization filters which is not the purpose of a mechanical filter.
Is it better as a skimmer? They both have their disadvantages when it comes to TOC removel but I think a mechanical filter can do better as +- 30%. A mechanical filter will not remove much the bacteria grown by carbohydrate supplementation as these bacteria will not colonise the bio-waste to retrieve there carbon source, but their offspring may.

A good aerobic remineralization filter wiil produce nitrate , elimiting ammonia and support the carrying capacity this way. Nitrate is a safely stored nitrogen reserve wich can be used or and easily exported.
A normal remineralization filter may export +- 15% of the ammonia-nitrogen processed in the filter, turned into nitrogen gas.

Using a refuge is an other option for managing nutrients. One may cultivate phytho- and Zooplankton, micro-and macro organisms, macro algae, biofloc, usable as a food source or and which can be harvested, as desired. Manging the nutrient content can be done by feeding the culture with a for the target nutrient modified medium.

I'm wondering if my skimmer just isn't effective. I've done probably 100% water change in the last 2 weeks, and removed prob 90% of the sand, and no3 is still red. It's a bit paler, but not to 80 yet. I've also blown off and brushed off all rocks, even removing all but the bottom layer. This issue is driving me nuts! I feed fish and I watch it all disappear within minutes. Or most all that I can see anyway

What may happen in a mature aquarium if one brushes or and blows off all rock? What is the expected result of this procedure? By cleaning the sand and rock one removes most of the denitrification capacity present.
Why battling the messengers? Why battling the presence of nitrate instead of the daily nitrogen overproduction. Why usable nitrogen may build up in a well lit aquarium? Why it is not used up?

Maybe your skimmer is too effective, removing building materials that are needed to use up the nitrogen, nitrogen which is left behind by the skimmer.

Exporting the nitrogen reserve not needed is not difficult using a biofilter , a refuge.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If gasses saturated seawater, having a high CO2 content, is passed true a skimmer, how much air this water may take up in the skimmer? If of any importance, what type of skimmer provides the best gas exhange rate?

 

[fishguy242]

the oceans have large skimmers

 

[Susan Edwards]

wow, so much information. Going to copy and save it to try to understand!! I do have a fuge. No sand. Just rock and rubble. Going to try chaeto again, but in a mouse ball to keep it from going all over. Reseeding tank with more pods, and using phyto as well as I'm sure I lost a lot of pods with my changes.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

wow, so much information. Going to copy and save it to try to understand!! I do have a fuge. No sand. Just rock and rubble. Going to try chaeto again, but in a mouse ball to keep it from going all over. Reseeding tank with more pods, and using phyto as well as I'm sure I lost a lot of pods with my changes.

If you had pods they will come back, some are leftover and eggs are everywhere, no need for seeding others. it is simple, if the nutrients are not present to reinstall the pod population, it will not help to seed others.

There are other options to be used in a refuge with algae, Chaeto is not suitable for being used in the food chain.
For example, Gracilaria, red macroalgae , can be used as a food source in your tank or in your kitchen. Only if you have herbivores in your tank as the algae may form spores if not harvested in time. But do not worry, they are decorative and easily controlled.

In a refuge, they can be cultivated using the tumbling method. The refuge must be big enough to be able to take up the present daily overproduction at 1/2 full capacity. It is best first to keep the tank to be used as a refuge disconnected from the main display, to learn how much F2 medium is needed to support enough growth. The refuge is then connected to the main system, maintaining 1/2 capacity by feeding with the selected medium.
This is just an example of how it can be done, there are a lot of other options and suitable candidates for cultivation in a refuge, also there is biofloc.


Another thing for managing the nutrient content may be the food source used, using high protein food ends up in more nitrogen overproduction and nitrate. Low protein food will end up in less nitrogen overproduction and more bioload. From this bioload, a lot can and will be reused in the food chain which means one has to adjust the supplemented food quantity to the needs. In a tank with a lot of different pods, there is enough food, and food supplements can be based on the pod population.

A skimmer, removing part of building materials constantly but very selective, plays the main role in closing the food chain, or must I say: "not closing the food chain".
Managing an aquarium system based on the presence and population of the primary food sources, feeding the primary food sources instead of the end-users, the use of a skimmer makes it very complicated.

Increasing the natural nitrogen export capacity of nitrogen gas of a normal nitrifying remineralization bio-filter can be done just by adding some elemental sulfur to the calcium carbonate substrate.