skimmerless tank with no water changes

Zoanthids don't use calcium and alkalinity, and LPS sometimes grow quite slowly. The buffer you added boosted the alkalinity, and even in a hard coral tank, alk won't drop especially low because they stop calcifying if the alk drops much below 6 dKH.

The deep portions of a sand bed can slowly dissolve, releasing calcium and alkalinity, but not generally enough to maintain significant amounts of growing hard corals or coralline.
Its nice to hear the chemistry behind this thx! So in theory if you had a 55 gal hard coral tank display with a huge frag tank as a sump 48x36x12 or somthing like that and it had the sump filled with sand it could potentially maintain cal and alk?
 
I haven't done a water change in 6 months and havent had a skimmer for a year.
I have a 90gal display tank with a 35gal sump. system has about 150-170 pounds of live rock (90 in display, 60-80lbs in sump) and about 60 lbs of live sand. i feed once every two days a cube of brine shrimp (I melt the cube and wash off the cloudy excess in water before it goes in the tank) it is an sps dominated tank that is getting respectable growth. right now I am dosing reef fusion 1 and 2, kent coral vite, and kent essential elements everyday. I have seen a few posts about tanks like mine in other forums.

I have yet to do a single water change in 6 months as part of an experiment, my phosphate is 0.25 ppm and my nitrate is around 5-7 ppm, although I can get it lower if I want. I am deliberately keeping nitrates in that range.
I am sump-less and I'd say about 35% of the volume of my tank is filled with live rock. I do use a skimmer, but the real secret for me is my Korallin S-1502 Sulphur Denitrator. It turns nitrates into nitrogen gas which simply rises out of the water column and thus exported out of the tank. Therefore my entire nitrogen cycle is maintenance-free...from ammonia to nitrogen gas and out the tank without any intervention on my part. A side-effect of denitrification is that it makes the water more acidic and thus lowers the pH, and for this reason the S-1502 also includes some aragonite in addition to the sulphur pellets, so as the water becomes more acidic it dissolves the aragonite and thus buffers the tank with kH and Ca.
This works well enough that I don't have to dose any Ca, but I do need to dose Alk every few days to keep it up in the 9's. I also dose a little magnesium. As soon as I started doing that I noticed my purple & blue coralline algae started coming back in a big way, therfore I'm assuming that the coralline algae on my live rock is why my magnesium got so low to begin with (it got into the 1100's before I got around to getting a magnesium test kit).

Even though my nitrate export is very efficient, I will say that one wrong move and I can get massive cyano blooms (the room gets a lot of indirect sunlight so that is also a factor in my case). I am using a canister filter instead of a sump (with all mechanical filtration removed from the canister, it contains only chemical (active carbon) and biological (bioballs) filtration) and the filter features an inline UV lamp that has been burnt out for years. Last week I finally replaced that bulb and I've been extremely impressed with how rapidly and thoroughly it gets rid of cyano. The caveat is it caused a nitrate spike, I'm assuming because now there's no more cyano eating up the nitrates. So I've simply had to readjust the flow rate on the denitrator, and all is well again nitrate-wise, but this time with absoolutely ZERO cyano instead of a constant light dusting that occasionally bloomed into a thick mat. My point being that a UV lamp may be a great addition to a tank with few water changes.
Like you, I also use Kent's Essential Elements, but per the instructions for tanks with low water changes, I only use it once a week. Since I can't test for the elements it contains, I'm nervous about exceeding the recommended dosage. How long have you been dosing that daily? What was your thought process regarding this? I'm assuming you're not noticing any ill effects?
 
I have yet to do a single water change in 6 months as part of an experiment, my phosphate is 0.25 ppm and my nitrate is around 5-7 ppm, although I can get it lower if I want. I am deliberately keeping nitrates in that range.
I am sump-less and I'd say about 35% of the volume of my tank is filled with live rock. I do use a skimmer, but the real secret for me is my Korallin S-1502 Sulphur Denitrator. It turns nitrates into nitrogen gas which simply rises out of the water column and thus exported out of the tank. Therefore my entire nitrogen cycle is maintenance-free...from ammonia to nitrogen gas and out the tank without any intervention on my part. A side-effect of denitrification is that it makes the water more acidic and thus lowers the pH, and for this reason the S-1502 also includes some aragonite in addition to the sulphur pellets, so as the water becomes more acidic it dissolves the aragonite and thus buffers the tank with kH and Ca.
This works well enough that I don't have to dose any Ca, but I do need to dose Alk every few days to keep it up in the 9's. I also dose a little magnesium. As soon as I started doing that I noticed my purple & blue coralline algae started coming back in a big way, therfore I'm assuming that the coralline algae on my live rock is why my magnesium got so low to begin with (it got into the 1100's before I got around to getting a magnesium test kit).

Even though my nitrate export is very efficient, I will say that one wrong move and I can get massive cyano blooms (the room gets a lot of indirect sunlight so that is also a factor in my case). I am using a canister filter instead of a sump (with all mechanical filtration removed from the canister, it contains only chemical (active carbon) and biological (bioballs) filtration) and the filter features an inline UV lamp that has been burnt out for years. Last week I finally replaced that bulb and I've been extremely impressed with how rapidly and thoroughly it gets rid of cyano. The caveat is it caused a nitrate spike, I'm assuming because now there's no more cyano eating up the nitrates. So I've simply had to readjust the flow rate on the denitrator, and all is well again nitrate-wise, but this time with absoolutely ZERO cyano instead of a constant light dusting that occasionally bloomed into a thick mat. My point being that a UV lamp may be a great addition to a tank with few water changes.
Like you, I also use Kent's Essential Elements, but per the instructions for tanks with low water changes, I only use it once a week. Since I can't test for the elements it contains, I'm nervous about exceeding the recommended dosage. How long have you been dosing that daily? What was your thought process regarding this? I'm assuming you're not noticing any ill effects?
Thanks for the reply gave me a few new ideas to play with:) I just kind of made up a dosing scheduled taking the instructions into account i decided to do a little trial and error test for myself about how much to add daily and its going very well. i have been dosing it daily since late December i started off with 2ml per day and am now moving to 3ml because of more trial and error experiments involving raising my cal to 500 and alk to 12. i had heard the main reason you dont bring your alk numbers this high is because your coral skeleton with actually out grow the flesh of your acropora resulting in "burnt tips" so i am now dosing 3ml of essential elements and 6ml of coral vite daily to try to see if the flesh of the coral can keep up. i know its probably a little excessive but i like to play around with stuff alot and see what happens. i have had great coral growth my my reefer friends standards thus far so if it doesnt get noticable faster or corals look bad i will go back to what i was doing. (which is 2ml essential elements and 4ml coral vite daily)
 
Its nice to hear the chemistry behind this thx! So in theory if you had a 55 gal hard coral tank display with a huge frag tank as a sump 48x36x12 or somthing like that and it had the sump filled with sand it could potentially maintain cal and alk?

If the sand bed is large enough and has enough decaying organic matter in it to lower pH, yes, but that rarely is accomplished. I don't know anyone who uses it as the only source of calcium and alkalinity, but some long term reefers do notice the sand volume declines over a period of years.
 
If the sand bed is large enough and has enough decaying organic matter in it to lower pH, yes, but that rarely is accomplished. I don't know anyone who uses it as the only source of calcium and alkalinity, but some long term reefers do notice the sand volume declines over a period of years.
nothing i was actually going to try just wondering thx.
 
How do people get away with rare water changes? Maybe in a very mature system I can understand but I would consider still doing a water change about once a month. A new system would be weekly changes.
I am just learning about saltwater, but I have read that some people do rare or no water changes. Just topoffs.
I have never done a water change in my salt water
 
I do use a skimmer, but the real secret for me is my Korallin S-1502 Sulphur Denitrator. It turns nitrates into nitrogen gas which simply rises out of the water column and thus exported out of the tank. Therefore my entire nitrogen cycle is maintenance-free...from ammonia to nitrogen gas and out the tank without any intervention on my part. A side-effect of denitrification is that it makes the water more acidic and thus lowers the pH, and for this reason the S-1502 also includes some aragonite in addition to the sulphur pellets, so as the water becomes more acidic it dissolves the aragonite and thus buffers the tank with kH and Ca.
This works well enough that I don't have to dose any Ca, but I do need to dose Alk every few days to keep it up in the 9's.

I just want to clarify that the denitrator does not actually add ANY alkalinity to the water. In fact, it is a net consumer of alkalinity in the sulfur denitration process.

Adding the aragonite to dissolve will help add back a portion of what was depleted, but not all of it.

That is why you do not need to add calcium (since it is added by the dissolving aragonite and not consumed by the denitrator), but still need to add alkalinity (because the denitrator overall is not actually adding any, but rather depleting it a bit, less so than if you did not use the aragonite, however).

FWIW, I discuss that in detail here:

Nitrate in the Reef Aquarium - REEFEDITION

from it:

Sulfur Denitrators

In these systems, bacteria use elemental sulfur and produce N2 from the sulfur and nitrate according the following equation (or something similar):

2 H2O + 5 S + 6 NO3- → 3 N2 + 5 SO42- + 4 H+

The production of acid (H+) in this reactor can tend to reduce the aquarium alkalinity. It has also been suggested to pass the effluent of such a reactor through a bed of aragonite to use the acid (H+) produced to dissolve the calcium carbonate, and thereby provide calcium and alkalinity to the aquarium. While that is a fine idea, it doesn’t add much calcium and alkalinity to most aquaria.

To estimate the magnitude of the effect, we start with a liberal estimate of how much nitrate might be removed. Say 10 ppm of nitrate per week.

10 ppm nitrate = 0.16 mmole/L of nitrate

Since 4 moles of H+ are produced for every 6 moles of nitrate consumed, this will produce

0.107 mmoles/L of H+ per week

How much calcium this could produce?

Assume that it takes one proton to dissolve one calcium carbonate:

CaCO3 + H+ → Ca2+ + HCO3-

Clearly, this is a substantial overestimate because much of the acid will be used up driving the pH down to the point where CaCO3 can even begin to dissolve. Consequently, we have an upside limit of 0.107 mmoles of Ca2+per week. Since calcium weighs 40 mg/mmol, that’s 4.3 ppm Ca2+ per week.

For comparison, an aquarist adding 2% of the tank volume in saturated limewater daily is adding on the order of 16 ppm of calcium per day. Consequently, this method may not be especially useful for maintaining calcium. Additionally, the acid produced will have a long term lowering effect on the alkalinity. In fact, it is double dipping on the alkalinity depletion since alkalinity is consumed when the nitrate is produced, and again when it is removed in the denitrator. So if you use a sulfur denitrator, be sure to monitor the alkalinity in the aquarium.
 
I have been in this hobby a long time.. Skimmerless is one thing but no water changes always fails eventually.

I have seen tanks last a year sometimes almost two years and occasionally longer especially if the tank is newer without water changes. A lot can depend on live rock and sandbed. It can depend on the amount of fish and feedings etc. A new sand bed and live rock can bind a lot of the nasties. There are allot of other factors too. You can run phosphate binders, you can additives to keep calcium, alkalinity up etc.

I have also seen these tanks end up crashing in no time. I have seen these owners panic once it start too happen because once it start there ain't much you can do. The rocks are chocked full of flock and they start releasing the nasties back. The sand bed is chocked full of detritus. Without water changes there is no way really remove detritus.

The big threat is where all that detritus goes if it ain't being removed through water changes. Some is removed through skimming or filter socks but allot is not. This is the biggest threat when you start water changes and you start to disturb it. It sits and decays and releases those nutrients directly into the sand bed and live rock.

With filter socks I still get tons of detritus in my sump how are you going to remove it with out a water change?
 

Pics don't mean nothing.. Another forum a guy put up a thread where he had not done water changes in years and he had all this delicate corals and anemones.. Turned out he had another tank build thread on another forum and was claiming his tank was a few months old with all these delicate anemones and stuff.. Using the same pics for both.. He was just trying to get a raise out of people on both forums...
 
I dnt have much detritus in my sump or display do lots of flow. I keep and extra power head in the skimmer chamber to keep it suspended and and extra power head in the return chamber . And my sump stays pretty clean
 
I have been in this hobby a long time.. Skimmerless is one thing but no water changes always fails eventually.

I have seen tanks last a year sometimes almost two years and occasionally longer especially if the tank is newer without water changes. A lot can depend on live rock and sandbed. It can depend on the amount of fish and feedings etc. A new sand bed and live rock can bind a lot of the nasties. There are allot of other factors too. You can run phosphate binders, you can additives to keep calcium, alkalinity up etc.

I have also seen these tanks end up crashing in no time. I have seen these owners panic once it start too happen because once it start there ain't much you can do. The rocks are chocked full of flock and they start releasing the nasties back. The sand bed is chocked full of detritus. Without water changes there is no way really remove detritus.

The big threat is where all that detritus goes if it ain't being removed through water changes. Some is removed through skimming or filter socks but allot is not. This is the biggest threat when you start water changes and you start to disturb it. It sits and decays and releases those nutrients directly into the sand bed and live rock.

With filter socks I still get tons of detritus in my sump how are you going to remove it with out a water change?
i use a filter pad (made out of the same material as a sock) that i will throw in and wrap it around the pvc overflow pipe that dumps into my sump and then stir up the tank by re-positioning power heads taking a turkey pastier and blasting it at the rocks ect. then do this until detritus isnt noticable anymore. i will admit with no skimmer or water changes you get some nasty stuff in that pad! I have also pulled my rocks out before to clean in between those.
 
Pics don't mean nothing.. Another forum a guy put up a thread where he had not done water changes in years and he had all this delicate corals and anemones.. Turned out he had another tank build thread on another forum and was claiming his tank was a few months old with all these delicate anemones and stuff.. Using the same pics for both.. He was just trying to get a raise out of people on both forums...
and i know i just wanted to see. Wow really thats so pitiful! he posted that a day after i posted this thread. Probably saw everyone was really getting into it about this and thought he could get a bunch of attention
 
I just want to clarify that the denitrator does not actually add ANY alkalinity to the water. In fact, it is a net consumer of alkalinity in the sulfur denitration process.

Adding the aragonite to dissolve will help add back a portion of what was depleted, but not all of it.

That is why you do not need to add calcium (since it is added by the dissolving aragonite and not consumed by the denitrator), but still need to add alkalinity (because the denitrator overall is not actually adding any, but rather depleting it a bit, less so than if you did not use the aragonite, however).

Absolutely correct. No argument here. I hope I did not imply anything different. If a system needs less alk added as a result of a certain process, I consider that process to be "buffering" the alk. So in my mind, a system that allows me to dose less alk than I normally would is indeed buffering that system. But no, in this case it should not be construed that the denitrator _completely_ buffers the alk...alk still needs to be added. Ah semantics. :)
 
With filter socks I still get tons of detritus in my sump how are you going to remove it with out a water change?

Snails, hermits, and a very active diamond goby. ;)

I did add mechanical filtration to my canister filter for one week while I treated with Kent's water clarifier, but that was before I got the goby. He made my tank very cloudy for a few days, but once that got filtered out he's been doing a great job of keeping the sandbed clear of detritus. Disturbing the sand bed no longer creates cloudy detritus-filled water.
 
Snails, hermits, and a very active diamond goby. ;)

I did add mechanical filtration to my canister filter for one week while I treated with Kent's water clarifier, but that was before I got the goby. He made my tank very cloudy for a few days, but once that got filtered out he's been doing a great job of keeping the sandbed clear of detritus. Disturbing the sand bed no longer creates cloudy detritus-filled water.
had one but he died:/
 

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