sodium bi carbonate

petemichelle · Apr 17, 2014

I am having problems in my new 150 gal tank which is still cycling. I keep adding soda ash to raise the alkalinity and does go up momentarily but something just sucks it out of the water and the level goes right back down. also there is a building up on the glass and equipment so I would assume that it is percipertating out. my mag level is over 1400. calcium is at 430.

anyway somebody suggested using sodium bi carbonate instead of the soda ash. what is the difference between the two? will this help my situation with the percipertation?

Downu · Apr 17, 2014

Check Nitrate levels. Hi N03 will make alk drop.

Downu · Apr 17, 2014

AND I dont know why you would be adding any thing to a new tank. Do you use Natural sea water or make your own?

petemichelle · Apr 18, 2014

Downu said:
AND I dont know why you would be adding any thing to a new tank. Do you use Natural sea water or make your own?

i make my own with rodi water and red sea pro salt. I check the levels before adding it to the tank and they all seemed in line with what they said it should be after mixing it with 1.6 pounds per 5 gallon. but as soon as I added it the alkalinity goes way down. I even kept a sample of the water separate in a cup and it holds the same level day after day, for about 4 days. the display tank on the other hand takes a nose dive, and if I add alkalinity, it goes up and then 5 hours later comes right back down. I use the BRS calculator and add enough to make it go up 1.4 dKH which is the max daily amount one should raise alkalinity in a day. but 5 hours later, it's back down to where i started. around 7.6

petemichelle · Apr 19, 2014

does anybody know if SODIUM BICARBONATE will actually lower the PH? or is neutral to ph.

ReeferEric · Apr 19, 2014

petemichelle said:
does anybody know if SODIUM BICARBONATE will actually lower the PH? or is neutral to ph.

I believe it lowers it. If the tank is cycling, why are you dosing? There is nothing taking it in.

Soda Ash is baked Sodium Bicarbonate. Soda Ash is more "pure" as in no or less water content in the powder, it also brings up the pH. And yes, the white stuff if participation. The tank is telling you its got enough. What test kits are you using?

petemichelle · Apr 19, 2014

ReeferEric said:
I believe it lowers it. If the tank is cycling, why are you dosing? There is nothing taking it in.

Soda Ash is baked Sodium Bicarbonate. Soda Ash is more "pure" as in no or less water content in the powder, it also brings up the pH. And yes, the white stuff if participation. The tank is telling you its got enough. What test kits are you using?

I am using red sea test kits, and also api test kits to double check the readings. I have also changed the reagents in the red sea alk and calcium test kits. so the readings I get does seem to be correct.
the tank water is now down to 5.9 alk since I stopped dosing 4 days ago. as to why I am dosing if it is still cycling, I am concerned since the alkalinity is far below regular sea water of 8-11 that the cycling may not go correctly, and even if it does, will I be able to add fish to a tank with that low of the alkalinity.
the readings today are mag 480, alk 5.9, calcium 410, ph 8.2, ammonia .75, nitrite 1.0, nitrate 10, salinity 1.024

Eric B · Apr 19, 2014

Here is a great article for you to read on dosing and what does what - Chemistry And The Aquarium: Solving Calcium And Alkalinity Problems ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

In all honesty I would not even check Calcium, Alk or Mag while I am cycling a tank you are just wasting test kits and time in my opinion. I would only be testing nitrite, ammonia and nitrate until tank is cycled and then would do a few water changes which you will need to do anyway and that should start to take care of your CA/Mag/Alk at that time.

ChouDawg · Apr 22, 2014

Are you running GFO? GFO can lower your Alkalinity and pH especially if used in higher than necessary dosages (BRS suggested comes to mind). What are the levels of the fresh RSCP mixed up?

Definitely read that Advanced Aquarist article it is worth it's e-weight in gold! With your high calc you cannot balance your alk until you lower your calcium. You'll be on a constant yo-yo chasing Alkalinity levels with high calcium and magnesium levels. Since your levels are only dropping in your tank it seems like something / equipment on your tank causing or leading to this drop.

Check out this awesome reef chemistry calculator that has 'balanced alkalinity' box which will tell you what maximum calc or alk you can have at certain levels

http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

ChouDawg · Apr 22, 2014

Oh ya I forgot to mention I had low alk and pH due to excess co2 in my house and gfo. I dosed two separate 8 gram quantities of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and that helped raise my alk from 5.3 to 9.3 over a few days of course. Dosing baking soda will drop your pH temporarily and your calcium IF they are already too high to balance whatever alk level you end up at. In my case it went down about 40ppm but that includes coral uptake as well.

evolved · Apr 22, 2014

You are adding it too quickly. You must drip it slowly over the course of several hours.

If you add it quickly, you cause a pH spike and it precipitates out, just as you are seeing.

And when you talk about adding soda ash, it is dissolved in a saturated solution, correct?

petemichelle · Apr 23, 2014

petemichelle · Apr 23, 2014

the comment about "why are you dosing? There is nothing taking it in" that can't be true.  I have stopped dosing the percipertation has completely stopped.  I have cleaned everything and see no more new percipertation, yet the alkalinity still drops.  I am down to 5.6 which is .3 less than 2 days ago.  just a steady drop.  I personally have come to believe that it is the rock and sand.  since the rock was dry rock and not cured and the sand is also not cured (aragonite out of a bag)  I believe that it is taking the alkalinity out of the water.  I am hoping they will equalize and then I will try bringing it up a little at a time.  like maybe 1 DKH at a time after the tank finishes cycling.  <br><br>I did a test where I added 7 tsp of alkalinity to the tank and waited for an hour.  then I took something like 3 cups of water out and tested it. the alkalinity was something like 11.8 DKH.  After testing it, I set the cup aside with a cover over it and let it sit.  after like 2 days the alk in the tank was way down to 9.2.  the water in the glass was still 11.8.  I then added a piece the same dry rock into the cup.  next day, guess what the water in the glass was down to 9.0.  hmmm.  <br><br>please give me some feed back if you see it differently.  I DO NOT KNOW ALL or think that I do.  I am more like at the end of my franitic nerves.  I could use all the different insights as I can get.  that is why I am posting to this forum.  and if you have direct experience like this, then I am pleading with you, please respond.  I need all the help I can get.  I'm getting tired of falling on my face.  cleaning all the equipment was a whole lot, plus the raised eyebrow from my wife and the "what are you going to do now?" quotes are driving me batty.. thanks guys, and gals...

petemichelle · Apr 23, 2014

evolved said:
You are adding it too quickly. You must drip it slowly over the course of several hours.

If you add it quickly, you cause a pH spike and it precipitates out, just as you are seeing.

And when you talk about adding soda ash, it is dissolved in a saturated solution, correct?

I was adding it with a doser which broke it up into 24 separate dosages a day, which meant it dosed on the hour every hour. and yes it was a saturated solution. BRS soda ash. made the solution just as they instructed. dosed it as they suggested, only enough to raise it 1.4 DKH a day. which was something like 374ml a day. then went to 500 a day. then to 700 a day. same with the calcium. in other words I was dosing equal amounts.

petemichelle · Apr 23, 2014

ChouDawg said:
Oh ya I forgot to mention I had low alk and pH due to excess co2 in my house and gfo. I dosed two separate 8 gram quantities of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and that helped raise my alk from 5.3 to 9.3 over a few days of course. Dosing baking soda will drop your pH temporarily and your calcium IF they are already too high to balance whatever alk level you end up at. In my case it went down about 40ppm but that includes coral uptake as well.

I am not currently using GFO. or carbon of any sort. how did you get an excess of co2? I am definitely going to try sodium bicarbonate "baking soda" next time, instead of the sodium carbonate "soda ash". My problem though has not been with getting the number for the alkalinity up when adding additives. I can add the dissolved BRS Soda Ash, as instructed and actually see a jump in alkalinity when I test 1 hours later. the problem has been keeping the level up. after about 5 hours it just falls right back down. I don't see it percipertating when I add the recommended amount. but I do see the white build up after a while, so something is causing it to percipertate out of the water AFTER it initially saturates into the water. were you having any problems like this? how big is your tank?

petemichelle · Apr 23, 2014

petemichelle said:
I was adding it with a doser which broke it up into 24 separate dosages a day, which meant it dosed on the hour every hour. and yes it was a saturated solution. BRS soda ash. made the solution just as they instructed. dosed it as they suggested, only enough to raise it 1.4 DKH a day. which was something like 374ml a day. then went to 500 a day. then to 700 a day. same with the calcium. in other words I was dosing equal amounts.

I meant 135 ml a day to start.

evolved · Apr 23, 2014

petemichelle said:
I was adding it with a doser which broke it up into 24 separate dosages a day, which meant it dosed on the hour every hour. and yes it was a saturated solution. BRS soda ash. made the solution just as they instructed. dosed it as they suggested, only enough to raise it 1.4 DKH a day. which was something like 374ml a day. then went to 500 a day. then to 700 a day. same with the calcium. in other words I was dosing equal amounts.

500 to 700ml a day?!?!

This is for a 150g tank, correct? You're way overdosing.

petemichelle said:
I am not currently using GFO. or carbon of any sort. how did you get an excess of co2?

What he's referring to is simply a lack of fresh air in the house, and therefore the CO2 level in the home gets a bit concentrated.

petemichelle said:
I can add the dissolved BRS Soda Ash, as instructed and actually see a jump in alkalinity when I test 1 hours later. the problem has been keeping the level up. after about 5 hours it just falls right back down. I don't see it percipertating when I add the recommended amount. but I do see the white build up after a while, so something is causing it to percipertate out of the water AFTER it initially saturates into the water.

It's precipitating on the walls/equipment because you're dosing too much.

I'm going to go out on a (familiar) limb here; I am guessing you are not using the right units with the BRS calculator.

By default, that calculator selects meq/l. It seems you're measuring in dKH. You have to toggle the units on the calculator. There's a 2.8 factor between meq/l and dKH, and the numbers you've stated are about 3x out of bed...

petemichelle · Apr 24, 2014

It's precipitating on the walls/equipment because you're dosing too much.

I'm going to go out on a (familiar) limb here; I am guessing you are not using the right units with the BRS calculator.

By default, that calculator selects meq/l. It seems you're measuring in dKH. You have to toggle the units on the calculator. There's a 2.8 factor between meq/l and dKH, and the numbers you've stated are about 3x out of bed...[/QUOTE]

i've run the whole gambit. from 135ml a day to 300ml to 500 to 700 all in equal amounts, all done with a doser, it just won't stay in the water. i have stopped dosing at all and as of 4/21 i am down to 5.6 in the alk and 400 in the calcium. mag is still in the mid 1400's. i've cleaned all the build up on the glass and equipment and I don't see any more build up but the alk still is dropping. my thought are it's the rock and sand taking in the alkalinity.

evolved · Apr 24, 2014

petemichelle said:
i've run the whole gambit. from 135ml a day to 300ml to 500 to 700 all in equal amounts, all done with a doser, it just won't stay in the water. i have stopped dosing at all and as of 4/21 i am down to 5.6 in the alk and 400 in the calcium. mag is still in the mid 1400's. i've cleaned all the build up on the glass and equipment and I don't see any more build up but the alk still is dropping. my thought are it's the rock and sand taking in the alkalinity.

Again, this is on a 150g tank?

Even at 135ml/day, you're way overdosing.

If I assume your total system volume is 150 gallons, the BRS calculator says 135ml of a soda ash solution will raise your Alk 1.25dKH.

It is possible your rock might be absorbing a bit, assuming it was dry rock, but that will stop once the rock equilibrates with the tank water.

By throwing the chemistry way out of whack, it'll take a couple days to stabilize again. Take a measurement today, wait a week, then measure again. You don't need to be daily dosing at all right now.

For a (somewhat removed) point of reference, my system volume is around 190g, my tank is packed with stony corals, and I only dose 115ml/day of Alk (soda ash).

If you had to dose more than 20ml/day to compensate (for now) for what the rock might be absorbing, I would be quite surprised. And bear in mind, once the rock reaches equilibrium, they're won't be any mechanism at all for you Alk to drop with nothing in the tank to consume it. I wouldn't expect that process to take much longer than a couple weeks.

backpack · Apr 27, 2014

I would check the test kit for accuracy. The calcium or mag Is probably off as well. If you are planning on a water change
after cycling that should get your numbers close anyways. Then you watch the drop and set your dosing pumps based on that.
If you just think your chems are bad send them to me for disposal.