Sodium carbonate + bicarbonate?

[MikeTheNewbie]

I saw a video where they recommended a mix of sodium carbonate and bicarbonate for increased stability. They mentioned that the same approach is used by Brightwell Alkalin 8.3.
I understand sodium carbonate causes a short term increase in pH and sodium bicarbonate a smaller but also short term decrease.
The video and product made me believe that there was a long term benefit of using both chemicals.
Does anyone know more about this?
I wonder what is the long term benefit and what ratio of carbonate / bicarbonate would be recommended?
Thanks

 

[MnFish1]

I saw a video where they recommended a mix of sodium carbonate and bicarbonate for increased stability. They mentioned that the same approach is used by Brightwell Alkalin 8.3.
I understand sodium carbonate causes a short term increase in pH and sodium bicarbonate a smaller but also short term decrease.
The video and product made me believe that there was a long term benefit of using both chemicals.
Does anyone know more about this?
I wonder what is the long term benefit and what ratio of carbonate / bicarbonate would be recommended?
Thanks

I do not think this philosophy makes complete sense - but - could you link the video? Also I believe that the main ingredient in this product (which I personally used - and will not use again) - is borate as a buffer. which gives you a great 'alkalinity' an 'ph' - but may not give as much carbonate alkalinity - which then requires purchase of a borate alkalinity test. If it was a FOWLR - no problem. Hope this helps.

 

[madlos123]

Oh I may know this video.
Let me know @MikeTheNewbie


At around 47:30 mark.
@Randy Holmes-Farley
is this true or he spitting non-sense.
Im no chemist either.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

You are right @madlos123 for a moment I thought it was a video from telegraham but yeah it was this one.
The time is 49:41. He says 10% sodium carbonate and 90% sodium bicarbonate.
I really want to believe. I know an important online coral store that uses the reef moonshiner method and I like the idea of achieving stability by mixing carbonate and bicarbonate or using ICP data to maintain proper levels of macro and trace elements but the statements in the video and in the method documentation seem to be more empiric than scientific fact based.
I'd love to see some feedback from a trusted source like @Randy Holmes-Farley on this.

 

[dwest]

You are right @madlos123 for a moment I thought it was a video from telegraham but yeah it was this one.
The time is 49:41. He says 10% sodium carbonate and 90% sodium bicarbonate.
I really want to believe. I know an important online coral store that uses the reef moonshiner method and I like the idea of achieving stability by mixing carbonate and bicarbonate or using ICP data to maintain proper levels of macro and trace elements but the statements in the video and in the method documentation seem to be more empiric than scientific fact based.
I'd love to see some feedback from a trusted source like @Randy Holmes-Farley on this.

I’d like to hear what Randy says too. But I believe that the only difference between the two products is a short term pH effect. The carbonate product would increase the pH more than the hydrogen carbonate. Again, I believe this is a short term.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I saw a video where they recommended a mix of sodium carbonate and bicarbonate for increased stability. They mentioned that the same approach is used by Brightwell Alkalin 8.3.
I understand sodium carbonate causes a short term increase in pH and sodium bicarbonate a smaller but also short term decrease.
The video and product made me believe that there was a long term benefit of using both chemicals.
Does anyone know more about this?
I wonder what is the long term benefit and what ratio of carbonate / bicarbonate would be recommended?
Thanks

There's no benefit from using both. It's largely a marketing gimmick.

Very few aquaria have pH exactly where it is wanted prior to dosing, and even fewer will be messed up by using sodium carbonate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I really want to believe.

lol

That's why this chemistry forum exists. There's a nugget of truth surrounded by a lot of misunderstanding in that sort of discussion.

The nugget is that a mixture of mostly bicarbonate and a little carbonate can be designed to have zero pH impact at any pH you want.

The misunderstanding is that matching the ratio to the current pH of the tank is of any benefit. In fact, it may not be desirable in many tanks.

Bear in mind that carbonate and bicarbonate interconvert many, many times a second in seawater. You cannot identify that one is a bicarbonate and one is a carbonate and expect that to hold true a microsecond later.

The relative amounts of bicarbonate and carbonate is a function of pH. There are lots of ways to impact this ratio (that is, impact pH), but the relative amount of bicarbonate and carbonate dosed is not a very effective one.

 

[rtparty]

I think it's worth pointing out that Andre doesn't sell an alkalinity supplement. The user decides how they want to handle alkalinity and calcium while using the RM method.

So, it can't be a marketing gimmick on Andre's part. He isn't marketing anything.

I've also found over my 17 years in the hobby that sometimes "real world science" doesn't match up with "on paper science." As to say, many experts say dosing certain elements is pointless for our tanks but I'll take what my eyes are telling me over their "science" any day. Andre's systems have been pretty dang amazing for years now. He's also been able to replicate it with thousands of other tanks.

Not ever going to argue or say RHF is wrong. That's crazy talk. Just saying something is going on that can't be ignored. Andre seems to have a very solid system that can be easily replicated. I'm sure with enough time and energy, it could all be scientifically explained. For now, I'll continue believing what my eyes tell me.

PS - I dose 100% soda ash in my tank

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I think it's worth pointing out that Andre doesn't sell an alkalinity supplement. The user decides how they want to handle alkalinity and calcium while using the RM method.

So, it can't be a marketing gimmick on Andre's part. He isn't marketing anything.

I was referring to other companies that were mentioned above, such as Brightwell Alkalin 8.3. In its product description they are highly misleading, including claims such as "Eliminates pH and KH instability caused by poor salt mixes and ineffective buffering products." It certainly is not going to do anything to correct a "poor salt mix", unless there was a hypothesized mix that had alkalinity too low (I'm not aware of any that are lower than NSW).

I'm also not saying that there is anything wrong with dosing all bicarbonate, all carbonate, none of either (using hydroxide) or any ratio mixture of any of these. In the end the only impact will be on pH, and if you know what pH you want, you can narrow in on any set of ways to get there.

 

[MikeTheNewbie]

Randy, thank you very much for sharing your insights!
It is funny that you mentioned it. I'm actually trying to increase the alkalinity of my NeoMarine salt mix.
I mix it with 0 TDS RODI in a 50 gallon container with a COR20 pump set at max flow for at least 12 hours.
My Hanna Alkalinity checker has measured between 6.7 and 6.8 dKH every time for the past 3 buckets.
I have tried to match my DT alkalinity of 8.3 - 8.5 multiple times. Several weeks ago I tried increasing it with sodium carbonate in 2 doses.
I guess I did it too fast and I ended up with precipitate and not a lot of increase in alkalinity so I consider that a failure :S
Now I'm trying to do the same with Sodium Bicarbonate. It seems a better option.
I assume that there is less risk of precipitate since there is no increase in pH (the pH of the NeoMarine mix is OK and I don't need to increase it). I think I should expect a slight increase in salinity which I measure anyways as part of the salt mixing process. Are there any disadvantages I should consider?
Thanks again!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Yes, sodium bicarbonate gives the lowest risk of precipitation, and its fine to use. You won't notice or detect the very small salinity increase.