Some Battery Backup Questions

[dputt88]

I have read a couple threads about battery backups but it seems that the OP usually already knows more about these then I do.

In the future we will get an automatic home generator. and right now we have a generator that easily hooks up to several circuits one being the heartbeat equipment of the tank.

but Im looking for something to run the heater and the return pump in case the power goes out and were all at work, i could have a little peace of mind that the water is circulating and being heated

Im curious if anyone can recommend an appropriate size battery back up that i can run my return pump and heater from for at least 6 hours. the heater is 800 watts and the return is a varios 8.

also is there a way to run whole apex off the backup, but have it run a certain profile when the back is supplying the power? this way when the power goes out and the backup is running only the return pump and heater run, but when the power comes back on, everything returns to normal programming.

 

[norfolkgarden]

Following. Great questions.

 

[ibondy]

Following. Great questions.

Following.

 

[laverda]

What size tank are you looking to protect? It will take a very large battery back up to run an 800 watt heater for long. I do not think most home/office battery backupss will support that much load. you You have to look into industrial units. A heater is not nearly as critical as circulation. If you feel you really need a heater I would use a 400 watt one instead. While it may not keep the temp as high it will keep it from falling to quickly.
I personally would hook up just your modem, apex and a tunze flow pump or 2 near the surface for oxiganation. This way you get notifications of a power outage, the tank has flow and ocygen for the longest time possible.
Hooking you 24 volt flow pumps to switch directly to the backup batteries will give the longest life oit of the batteries. This because you skip the process and electrical losses of converting from 12 or 24 volts to 110 and then back to 24 volts again.
ACP has a 1500 Amp hour UPS that is capable of taking a large hot swappable battery pack. It will run a couple Tunze pumps for a long time. It displayes estimated run times on the display. I believe this is the largest consumer battery back up readily available. I love mine. You can find them surprisingly inexpensive new some times.

 

[jent]

For the apex, you can plug in a power adapter to the power directly (so it cuts out when power goes out). The apex can then detect the state of the power and adjust outlets as needed. You will need to power the eb8 from the battery to power the apex and supply power to the devices.

I personally have two eb8's, one that's backed up by the battery, and another that's for high wattage items (lights, heaters). This reduces the wear on the battery. Powering the heaters off the battery would not be realistic or necessary anyways. Thinga can get cold and be ok compared to stagnant.

 

[laverda]

For the apex, you can plug in a power adapter to the power directly (so it cuts out when power goes out). The apex can then detect the state of the power and adjust outlets as needed. You will need to power the eb8 from the battery to power the apex and supply power to the devices.

I personally have two eb8's, one that's backed up by the battery, and another that's for high wattage items (lights, heaters). This reduces the wear on the battery. Powering the heaters off the battery would not be realistic or necessary anyways. Thinga can get cold and be ok compared to stagnant.

Have unplugged your EB8s to check that your Apex still works the power adptor. I ask as mine does not. There is a thread on the Neptune forum on how to set it up for power outage and the do not mention using a power adptor at all. It requires 2 EB8s. One must be on a UPS as you have yours, but it requires some programming to set up properly. To be honest I have not done it yet myself. I rely on my Tunze safety switch’s hooked to 12 volt batteries and my large UPS. I recently bought the materials to modify my UPS to hook up directly to my Tunze safety connectors.

 

[Tastee]

Have unplugged your EB8s to check that your Apex still works the power adptor. I ask as mine does not. There is a thread on the Neptune forum on how to set it up for power outage and the do not mention using a power adptor at all. It requires 2 EB8s. One must be on a UPS as you have yours, but it requires some programming to set up properly. To be honest I have not done it yet myself. I rely on my Tunze safety switch’s hooked to 12 volt batteries and my large UPS. I recently bought the materials to modify my UPS to hook up directly to my Tunze safety connectors.

The power adapter does not power the Apex, all it does is provide a sensor to tell the Apex when the mains power goes out. You need to run a UPS or other battery backup, power at least one EB from that and power the Apex from that EB. You don’t need multiple EBs to get this working.

There may be a way to achieve this with two EBs but I am not aware of it and it is not a standard setup. The standard setup is as above - EB powered from UPS powering Apex and critical equipment, power adapter connected to mains used as a sensor.

 

[Tastee]

also is there a way to run whole apex off the backup, but have it run a certain profile when the back is supplying the power? this way when the power goes out and the backup is running only the return pump and heater run, but when the power comes back on, everything returns to normal programming.

Yes there is, and that is the way I have my system configured. Let me know if you would like me to post details of my program and feel free to PM me if you like. As per other responses however powering heaters from a UPS is challenging due to the power draw. I personally only power pumps. In my case temperature drop will be gradual and acceptable, can wait until mains comes back on to rectify.

 

[dputt88]

What size tank are you looking to protect? It will take a very large battery back up to run an 800 watt heater for long. I do not think most home/office battery backupss will support that much load. you You have to look into industrial units. A heater is not nearly as critical as circulation. If you feel you really need a heater I would use a 400 watt one instead. While it may not keep the temp as high it will keep it from falling to quickly.
I personally would hook up just your modem, apex and a tunze flow pump or 2 near the surface for oxiganation. This way you get notifications of a power outage, the tank has flow and ocygen for the longest time possible.
Hooking you 24 volt flow pumps to switch directly to the backup batteries will give the longest life oit of the batteries. This because you skip the process and electrical losses of converting from 12 or 24 volts to 110 and then back to 24 volts again.
ACP has a 1500 Amp hour UPS that is capable of taking a large hot swappable battery pack. It will run a couple Tunze pumps for a long time. It displayes estimated run times on the display. I believe this is the largest consumer battery back up readily available. I love mine. You can find them surprisingly inexpensive new some times.

I live in Michigan and if the power goes out in the winter the tank will get cold quickly. so thats why i wanted circulation and heat. if it goes out in the summer then i will likely try to tell it to ignore the heater. I wasnt planning on connecting the modem to the power supply because i get a text when my apex disconnects to fusion, typically only during a power outage. the system is over 350 gal and i dont think a 400W would do much.

Yes there is, and that is the way I have my system configured. Let me know if you would like me to post details of my program and feel free to PM me if you like. As per other responses however powering heaters from a UPS is challenging due to the power draw. I personally only power pumps. In my case temperature drop will be gradual and acceptable, can wait until mains comes back on to rectify.

Can a few of you guys and gals post a diagram of what you are describing here. it sounds interesting and doable but i am having trouble visualizing your methods

 

[jent]

I live in Michigan and if the power goes out in the winter the tank will get cold quickly. so thats why i wanted circulation and heat. if it goes out in the summer then i will likely try to tell it to ignore the heater....

Looking at just the usage of your 800 watt heater:
https://www.apc.com/shop/us/en/tool...singlePhase&pageNumber=1&sortOption=PRICE_ASC

So 10 to 20 minutes after a very large investment....That is not worth it. I understand the tank will drop in temperature significantly but we are talking about survival. Survival is more dependent on the water movement than the temperature. You need to keep those pumps running as long as possible.

If you feel heaters are strictly required a generator is really the only option, 10 minutes may not even be enough time to get home to turn on a generator.

 

[pelphrey]

I run the APC1500, granted it won't run my tank very long. I use the battery backup for power surges, if there is a power issue (that is short) my tank doesn't miss a beat. More importantly I don't run the risk of frying any equipment, or at least a lower risk!

 

[dputt88]

So it takes my tank about 45 min to drop .5 F and that's when the house is between 68F and 70F. If the power goes out and its 10F outside the house is going to get cold quick its going to drop faster. This winter we saw -16F, I'm thinking about this now because I'm wondering what would have happened to this dream tank if the power went out one of those days and I was an hour away at work. I wouldnt say survival is more dependent on circulation then it is on temp, at least not in Michigan, more so people usually focus on circulation because its easier to accomplish. you are right though, the cost of these battery back ups is not feasible, especially when $7500 gets me an automatic generator that runs off our propane pig, starts on its own and carries the whole house.