Sourcing Chloroquine Phosphate

[Lazys Coral House]

It still has the same problem other products have.... it's a question of purity. If you don't know the purity of the CP in a product like that, then how do you know you are dosing the correct amount?

Because it says in the instructions on the bottle how much to dose. I seriously doubt that spectrum just randomly made up the dosing amount and put it on the bottle. The difference here is your buying a retail product from a reputable company that has specifically packaged it for the treatment of the ich parasite. It isnt a bag of powder from a guy on ebay. http://nlsfishfood.com/health/medication/documentation/ick-shield-powder/

 

[4FordFamily]

Because it says in the instructions on the bottle how much to dose. I seriously doubt that spectrum just randomly made up the dosing amount and put it on the bottle. The difference here is your buying a retail product from a reputable company that has specifically packaged it for the treatment of the ich parasite. It isnt a bag of powder from a guy on ebay. http://nlsfishfood.com/health/medication/documentation/ick-shield-powder/

I think you're missing the point -- the product doesn't say exactly how much CP is contained. If they make no claim to the amount in each bottle, how can we ensure a proper dose?

 

[Reefpharmer]

@jasonrusso Even pharmacies that source from overseas do their own testing before reselling. Why? Because their products are meant for human consumption, and testing for purity is a lot cheaper than settling a lawsuit, paying FDA fines, etc. Obviously, I cannot guarantee this happens 100% of the time but it is the norm for the industry.

So that's not entirely true. US pharmacies order prescription medications from licensed wholesale companies. They can't just directly order from manufacturers. There are sometimes drop-ship arrangements between pharmacies/wholesale/manufacturers but the paper trail still has a central figure which is the wholesale. This arrangement tries to establish a lineage of sort.
Many meds are manufactured outside of the states but the manufacturers have to apply and get approved by the FDA to sell in the US though wholesalers to pharmacies. The "quality control" is done during the application process and periodically randomly during inspections.

 

[Humblefish]

Because it says in the instructions on the bottle how much to dose. I seriously doubt that spectrum just randomly made up the dosing amount and put it on the bottle. The difference here is your buying a retail product from a reputable company that has specifically packaged it for the treatment of the ich parasite. It isnt a bag of powder from a guy on ebay. http://nlsfishfood.com/health/medication/documentation/ick-shield-powder/

I don't share your faith in aquarium company dosage instructions. For example, following Cupramine (Seachem) and Coppersafe (Fritz Aquatics) dosage instructions will almost always yield a subtherapeutic copper level. You have to measure using a suitable test kit, and then bump it up a bit. And don't even get @Maritimer started on Kordon's Copper-AID.

The "quality control" is done during the application process and periodically randomly during inspections.

A vet compounding pharmacy I am very familiar with tests every batch of CP before selling it. Anything less than 99% pure gets sent back. But even random testing is better than none at all I suppose.

 

[Reefpharmer]

Ah we are discussing different areas of pharmacy. I'm describing human prefabbed meds like Prozac, Lipitor etc . You are describing veterinary compounding which is quite different and I don't have a good idea about what pet compounding pharmacies do

 

[jasonrusso]

@jasonrusso Even pharmacies that source from overseas do their own testing before reselling. Why? Because their products are meant for human consumption, and testing for purity is a lot cheaper than settling a lawsuit, paying FDA fines, etc. Obviously, I cannot guarantee this happens 100% of the time but it is the norm for the industry.

I would hope that this is true, but realistically I think it happens much less than we think. We live in a reactionary society. We change our ways only AFTER there is a problem.

 

[dh350twin]

I think the back and forth is unnecessary. For those who just can't get the pure stuff this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully they will keep improving on it and this company and others will get us hobbyist a quality product to use without jumping through hoops to get it the way we have to now.

 

[Crashjack]

It sure sounds it after reading the instructions. I wonder what concentration it is.

The dosage is 30mg/l.

Is it CP or Quinnine Sulfate?

The dosage is actually 30 mg/gal... 600 mg per 20 gallons = 30 mg/gallon. It looks like they reduced the dosage everybody is using by 25%, assuming it is 99% pure, which nobody knows. I strongly doubt the QC for this product is any worse than any other fish medication we use. I guess the question is, should all fish medications with known ingredients be purchased from pharmacies instead of pet stores?

 

[jasonrusso]

The dosage is actually 30 mg/gal... 600 mg per 20 gallons = 30 mg/gallon. It looks like they reduced the dosage everybody is using by 25%, assuming it is 99% pure, which nobody knows. I strongly doubt the QC for this product is any worse than any other fish medication we use. I guess the question is, should all fish medications with known ingredients be purchased from pharmacies instead of pet stores?

Yes, that's what I meant. The other thing that is strange is it says it has no expiration.

 

[Humblefish]

I think the back and forth is unnecessary. For those who just can't get the pure stuff this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully they will keep improving on it and this company and others will get us hobbyist a quality product to use without jumping through hoops to get it the way we have to now.

My "problem" with non-pharmaceutical grade CP is it threatens to destroy the reputation of a promising alternative to copper. Medication isn't usually effective unless purity and dosage is spot-on. So someone uses non-pharmaceutical grade CP, it doesn't work for them, which turns into CP doesn't work at all and that misinformation spreads.

The dosage is actually 30 mg/gal... 600 mg per 20 gallons = 30 mg/gallon. It looks like they reduced the dosage everybody is using by 25%, assuming it is 99% pure, which nobody knows.

CP therapeutic range is actually 40-60 mg/gal. You can technically go up to 80 mg/gal, but "copper like" side effects will often occur at that dosage. Which undoes one of the benefits of using CP.

Yes, that's what I meant. The other thing that is strange is it says it has no expiration.

CP has a shelf life of 3 years.

 

[domination2580]

So I have a 10 gallon tank to treat with cp...i would need a 500 mg capsule?

 

[leahfiish]

So I have a 10 gallon tank to treat with cp...i would need a 500 mg capsule?

At least 400mg.. Plus a little extra if you want or need to do a water change.

 

[billw]

So I have a 10 gallon tank to treat with cp...i would need a 500 mg capsule?

The tablets are only 60% chloroquine (300 mg per 500 mg tablet). I'm not familiar with capsules but it should be readily available information.

 

[dh350twin]

My "problem" with non-pharmaceutical grade CP is it threatens to destroy the reputation of a promising alternative to copper. Medication isn't usually effective unless purity and dosage is spot-on. So someone uses non-pharmaceutical grade CP, it doesn't work for them, which turns into CP doesn't work at all and that misinformation spreads.

CP therapeutic range is actually 40-60 mg/gal. You can technically go up to 80 mg/gal, but "copper like" side effects will often occur at that dosage. Which undoes one of the benefits of using CP.

CP has a shelf life of 3 years.

We all know that pharm grade CP works. My point was by New Life stepping up and recognizing this by putting something out that may or may not work is a "STEP" in the right direction. If New life called it CP then i could understand about losing ground on the reputation.

Humblefish have you picked this up and tested it on a specimen? That would really give it the validity it would need or not.

 

[Humblefish]

So I have a 10 gallon tank to treat with cp...i would need a 500 mg capsule?

The following was taken from Bob Goemans online book, THE LIVING AQUARIUM MANUAL:

In most cases, 250 mg tablets have an equivalence of 150 mg chloroquine base, and 500 mg tablets have an equivalence of 300 mg chloroquine base. Although the purity mentioned above is generally accurate, it would be best to verify the chloroquine base contained in the tablets of your choice in order to be able to properly calculate the exact dosage. Keep in mind if you decide to use the tablets, there are some inactive ingredients, which you may have to deal with, e.g., Camauba Wax, Colloidal Silicon Dioxide, Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, Magnesium Stearate, Microcrystalline Cellulose, Polyethylene Glycol, Polysorbate 80, Pregelatinized Starch, Sodium Starch Glycolate, Stearic Acid, and Titanium Dioxide. And as mentioned earlier in this chapter there are occasions where some medicines are not in their pure form (100% pure), i.e., mixed with a substance called a 'carrier,' which should be noted on its label. If so its potency is reduced, and if not sure about the exact amount of medication needed, suggest contacting a more experienced aquarist for the way to resolve this situation.

 

[Crashjack]

Sounds like a job for our friends at BRS... not necessarily testing on fish but having several samples tested for purity. Some lab has to have the ability to test the purity I would think.

 

[Humblefish]

Humblefish have you picked this up and tested it on a specimen? That would really give it the validity it would need or not.

I have not. I've only experimented with pharmaceutical grade CP thus far. I'm still trying to figure out which species are intolerant of that. So far, wrasses, anthias and Hippo Tangs are on the "no CP" list until further testing can be done. I've read conflicting things on how tolerant seahorses & pipefish are of CP, so I'm eager to try them next.

Sounds like a job for our friends at BRS... not necessarily testing on fish but having several samples tested for purity. Some lab has to have the ability to test the purity I would think.

I checked with a compounding pharmacy and they want $400 to test one sample of CP. However, using a spectrophotometer is much more cost effective over the long haul because you can test dosage in the water. I can pickup a used Hach DR5000 for around $2,000-$3,000 and will be doing so after we move. I'll also use it to test the purity of NLS's product, as requested above. Assuming my lawyer assures me that I can't be sued for dong that. I'll have to word it very carefully.

 

[125mph]

I checked with a compounding pharmacy and they want $400 to test one sample of CP. However, using a spectrophotometer is much more cost effective over the long haul because you can test dosage in the water. I can pickup a used Hach DR5000 for around $2,000-$3,000 and will be doing so after we move. I'll also use it to test the purity of NLS's product, as requested above. Assuming my lawyer assures me that I can't be sued for dong that. I'll have to word it very carefully.

You should test eBay CP (fishman chem) and NLS ick shield powder too . If that stuff is 100% legit, would make access to CP for us reefers easy.

 

[Humblefish]

You should test eBay CP (fishman chem) and NLS ick shield powder too . If that stuff is 100% legit, would make access to CP for us reefers easy.

I would just need to be concerned about liability from doing that, ya know? Especially if it tested at less than 99% pure.

I would probably reach out to them before publishing my findings. I'm sure we could figure out something that worked and wouldn't get me in hot water with the companies.

 

[dh350twin]

Just having these companies trying to use the active ingredient of CP in an available without prescription medication is progress and hopefully others will find the value (seachem) to manufacturing a pure version of this. [emoji12]