Spectrum and Dinoflagellate Outbreak?

[Dana Riddle]

Just had an interesting private conversation. This fellow was asking my opinion about using blue actinic lighting as the sole source. My reply - Theoretically possible, but my only experience in trying it resulted in a massive dinoflagellate outbreak within 24 hours. He reported a similar experience after changing from halides to T5s. Has anyone else seen this?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Definitely following this one.

 

[reeferfoxx]

@Dana Riddle You tell us! LOL

Unfortunately, in the dino threads I've yet to come across a case where a successful reef had an outbreak after changing lighting. Maybe someone else can give more insight.

 

[Pmj]

I had dinos after switching lighting, but I wouldnt think it was related. Both lights were similar spectrum (16k going by GHL software estimate). Black boxes to Mitras.

 

[PurduePete93]

Nothing conclusive yet, but I think I may be experiencing this right now. I lost a ballast 6 months ago that isn’t made any longer so I was running half the actinic capacity than normal with my halides. About 2 weeks ago I replaced the failed power compact actinic with an LED actinic strip and I do have some black slime growth that I’m fighting since restoring back to full actinic capacity.

 

[mcarroll]

In the past, for what it's worth, I've ran a ricordea tank on all blue emitters and had no dino's or otherwise strange outcomes. (Surprisingly!)

Just to imagine out loud a little...

I guess I can imagine if there was a change in lighting that resulted in a big change in total flux then I would expect "some" big change in the tank.

Big change = disturbance. And I suppose that makes it something that could hypothetically pave the way for a dino bloom.

As far as I know, dino's bloom when they switch to heterotrophy.

And as far as I know temperature, nutrients and salinity are potential triggers.

It seems reasonable to presume that light could be a trigger for one or more dino species...but it's not something I've heard of so far.

Do we know if there was an overall increase or decrease in light on either case where dino's bloomed?

Any chance we know the nutrient history of either tank?

 

[Dana Riddle]

In the past, for what it's worth, I've ran a ricordea tank on all blue emitters and had no dino's or otherwise strange outcomes. (Surprisingly!)

Just to imagine out loud a little...

I guess I can imagine if there was a change in lighting that resulted in a big change in total flux then I would expect "some" big change in the tank.

Big change = disturbance. And I suppose that makes it something that could hypothetically pave the way for a dino bloom.

As far as I know, dino's bloom when they switch to heterotrophy.

And as far as I know temperature, nutrients and salinity are potential triggers.

It seems reasonable to presume that light could be a trigger for one or more dino species...but it's not something I've heard of so far.

Do we know if there was an overall increase or decrease in light on either case where dino's bloomed?

Any chance we know the nutrient history of either tank?

I'll take a look and see if I have a log from that tank. Almost 30 years ago so I doubt it, but I do know phosphate would be high by today's standards (0.5 ppm, as estimated by a LaMotte visual comparator.) There would be a definite decrease in light - I had to wire two VHO actinic lamps into a Coralife metal halide luminaire because in those days it was either/or halides or fluorescents. So, I decided to try just the VHO actinics under the mistaken belief that blue light's higher energy level made a difference in rates of photosynthesis.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Nothing conclusive yet, but I think I may be experiencing this right now. I lost a ballast 6 months ago that isn’t made any longer so I was running half the actinic capacity than normal with my halides. About 2 weeks ago I replaced the failed power compact actinic with an LED actinic strip and I do have some black slime growth that I’m fighting since restoring back to full actinic capacity.

Interesting. Please keep us posted!

 

[Dana Riddle]

@Dana Riddle You tell us! LOL

Unfortunately, in the dino threads I've yet to come across a case where a successful reef had an outbreak after changing lighting. Maybe someone else can give more insight.

It just occurred to me that I have (maybe) a second incident to report. My lab's tank is 3 months old and has had minimal dinoflagellate growth for a while (rock exposed to light had a slight fuzzy brown appearance and glass would get a haze.) I purchased eight corals on November 8 and placed them on a frag rack at the bottom of the tank. Wanting to give them more light, I added a LED strip light and ran it for 4 hours a day (2 hours a.m., 2 hours p.m.) The dinoflagellates bloomed and formed snotty brown threads. Nutrients are 0.01 phosphorous and 0.7 nitrate as N (about 3 ppm as nitrate if my early morning math is correct.)

 

[iemsparticus]

It just occurred to me that I have (maybe) a second incident to report. My lab's tank is 3 months old and has had minimal dinoflagellate growth for a while (rock exposed to light had a slight fuzzy brown appearance and glass would get a haze.) I purchased eight corals on November 8 and placed them on a frag rack at the bottom of the tank. Wanting to give them more light, I added a LED strip light and ran it for 4 hours a day (2 hours a.m., 2 hours p.m.) The dinoflagellates bloomed and formed snotty brown threads. Nutrients are 0.01 phosphorous and 0.7 nitrate as N (about 3 ppm as nitrate if my early morning math is correct.)

I presume Phosphorus and Nitrate levels didn’t change once you added Corals, and the only change was the additional LED strip light?

 

[Dana Riddle]

I presume Phosphorus and Nitrate levels didn’t change once you added Corals, and the only change was the additional LED strip light?

No changes in water chemistry to speak of since adding the LED actinic strip light (NO3-N went from 0.9 to 1.0 ppm; P remained at 0.01.) LED strip has been removed.

 

[iemsparticus]

No changes in water chemistry to speak of since adding the LED actinic strip light (NO3-N went from 0.9 to 1.0 ppm; P remained at 0.01.) LED strip has been removed.

I’ll be very interested in hearin what happens to the tank now that the LED strip is gone.

Did you get PAR and spectral readings before the strip and after it was installed?

 

[reeferfoxx]

So, LEDs cause dinos? Lol... Something is off here.

What size tanks? Where they cycled with dry rock or live rock? Sand or bare bottom? Whats in the filtration? How long have they been running? How many frags of coral where added?

 

[mcarroll]

No changes in water chemistry to speak of since adding the LED actinic strip light (NO3-N went from 0.9 to 1.0 ppm; P remained at 0.01.) LED strip has been removed.

I suspect not, but this is the boilerplate: is there any chance you've used GFO, an organic carbon source or something other than live rock to found the tank?

If "yes" on any one or more of those and this were a regular dino thread I would have suggested a small amount of P fertilizer. If the bloom is not well-established, that's usually enough to revert them. It will be interesting to see if the light change slows or reverts the bloom!

For what it's worth, .01 is definitely near-zero depending on the maturity of the tank and the overall history.

Supposedly dino's are terrible at P uptake, so when it gets persistently low they can become provoked into eating things like bacteria to acquire their daily N's, P's and C's rather than relying on photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients. The fact that you can see them should mean that's what's happening in your tank.

(Any chance of a microscope pic of the dino patch? Before this is over it might be interesting to know which variety we're talking about, if possible. )

 

[iemsparticus]

The discussion is obviously not that LEDs cause Dino blooms where MH and T5 don’t. The discussion is whether or not spectrum plays a roll, and how much of one.

I don’t think it’s out of left field for that to be theorized... spectrum plays (clearly) a huge roll is zooxanthellae propagation, and since zoox are a type of dino, this certainly seems plausible. Looking forward to hearing what happens.

 

[reeferfoxx]

The discussion is obviously not that LEDs cause Dino blooms where MH and T5 don’t. The discussion is whether or not spectrum plays a roll, and how much of one.

I don’t think it’s out of left field for that to be theorized... spectrum plays (clearly) a huge roll is zooxanthellae propagation, and since zoox are a type of dino, this certainly seems plausible. Looking forward to hearing what happens.

Fair enough. However, if (speculating) the tank is dry rock cycled, no fish, no N and P source, with moderate filtration, hitting that correct spectrum would cause an increase of N and P consumption from coral. When those numbers hit low in a new tank and its been exposed to dinos from frags, you've created a dino environment.

But my only argument would be that T5 and MH hit better spectrums than LED out of the gate.

 

[Dana Riddle]

So, LEDs cause dinos? Lol... Something is off here.

What size tanks? Where they cycled with dry rock or live rock? Sand or bare bottom? Whats in the filtration? How long have they been running? How many frags of coral where added?

90-gallon with a 40 gallon sump. Dry rock. CaribSea Fiji Pink live aragonite sand plus perhaps 10 pounds from a fully cycled tank. Reef Octopus skimmer, GAC, filter socks for mechanical filtration. Tank has been up and running since late August. Correction - eight frags were added on 11/1/2017 for a total of about 20. Frags purchased on the 8th were not added and are in quarantine. The only thing that changed was the additional lighting (and the frag additions 0n 11/1.) I should be careful in implying that lighting was the causative agent (the title of this thread is after all a question.) What I can say is that I've seen blooms when lighting was drastically changed to the blue end of the spectrum (intensity rose in one instance and fell in the other) but can't point to a specific cause. Anecdotal at this point based on my and one other's observations (with a couple of maybes.)

 

[Dana Riddle]

There are several damsels in the tank. They're fed several times a day. Corals once daily with Reef Roids. That spectrum plays a part is anecdotal barely advancing to the hypothesis stage. A lot of work needed before it becomes a theory. Input requested!

 

[mcarroll]

None of this makes the question of whether spectrum will have an impact any less interesting. I wanna know!!

For what it's worth...the low-P conditions plus the dead rock foundation can be considered to be the "reason" for the bloom, IMO. It sounds like the bloom is mild so if needed at the end of the experiment it can probably be reverted from blooming with a little P fertilizer.

There are several damsels in the tank. They're fed several times a day. Corals once daily with Reef Roids. That spectrum plays a part is anecdotal barely advancing to the hypothesis stage. A lot of work needed before it becomes a theory. Input requested!

@taricha may have some interesting observations. In fact I'd like to be able to @Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether? right now. Why isn't that possible?

 

[chefjpaul]

Fair enough. However, if (speculating) the tank is dry rock cycled, no fish, no N and P source, with moderate filtration, hitting that correct spectrum would cause an increase of N and P consumption from coral. When those numbers hit low in a new tank and its been exposed to dinos from frags, you've created a dino environment.

But my only argument would be that T5 and MH hit better spectrums than LED out of the gate.

I could easily capture this, I am in this exact scenario, fishless, nutrients bottoming out and all new rock, yet, added T5's just prior to the infestation, adding higher spectrum??

All this a combination of changes occurred to feed this?

Too many variables in each unique situation.
I can say, I've been running LED for approximately 5 years, with an assortment of colors and spectrums and sometimes 90% blues, yet, This is my first with dinos, I honestly don't think lighting had anything do do with it.
As I fixed the PO4 & NO3, with manual labor, it seemed to go into hibernation.

Maybe we need to look at the history of Dinos in aquaria, and when they seem to become a dominating force vs. Lighting vs. technologies vs. Transportation / trading of animals etc...

Of course, we are dealing with a species in the thousands of different genus probably slightly difference of uptake requiring slightly difference of eradication.