sponges. Too many? What eats them?

SPonges can be beneficial but they can also be a problem. They are essential recyclers of DOC (carbon dosing) but with too much DOC they can potentially cause a feedback loop with algae shifting an ecosystem to an algae dominate system. It sounds like these are possibly grwoing well as a result of the disruption caused by the upgrade and are just one of the cycles that can occur as a result. Since they do appear to be interfering with your corals at least eastheticly, for now I'd just use manual removal. Using a steel straw with a siphon and carefully controlling the flow by pinching the hose you should be able to remove the sponge with minimal damage to corals.
Are you saying my algae is a result of the nopox? Not sure I understand the "feedback loop with algae shifting an ecosystem to an algae dominate system. "
 
oh my god im jealous

I'd jmuch rather have my rocks covered with sponges than aiptasia!!!!!!! At least the sponges dont hurt my fishes!
I'll agree with you there!!! Counting blessings on that!
 
Are you saying my algae is a result of the nopox? Not sure I understand the "feedback loop with algae shifting an ecosystem to an algae dominate system. "

Sponges process the DOC released by algae differently than they process the DOC released by corals. Researchers have documented a feedback loop where sponges feed off the algal DOC and release nutrients into the water that promote algae growth which releases more DOC to feed sponges . . . The algal DOC also promotes heterotrophic microbial processes which can cause anoxic conditions around corals negatively affecting them as well as potentially promoting pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. So algae is getting a boost from the sponges and reduced competition from corals promoting a phase shift to a sponge and algae dominate system.

If PO4 drops below .03 mg/l corals can be negatively affected. Research done at SOuthampton Unicversity in England with corals maintained in a reef ssytem for over a decade showed a nitrogen/phosphorus imbalance causes phosphorus deficiency and can have very serious consiquences for corals potentially killing them. Depending on the nitrate levels the minimum PO4 needed to prevent a phosphate deficiency can be much higher. The .03 mg/l was the minimum level the researchers identified.

I get critisized for posting research but here's a data bomb anyway:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

DOC and microbial links:

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

Sponge stuff

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

de Angelo and Wiedenmann's research at Southampton University

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Nitrogen and phosphorus stuff

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts


Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals

Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals

Urea a source of nitrogen for corals

Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals

Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism

And a couple of jpg's

Fig 4 from "Phosphorus Metabolism of Reef Organisms with Algal Symbionts"
DIP DOP POP.jpg

Fig. 3 from "Context Dependant Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism"
Context‐dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral–algal mutualism(1).png
 
Sponges process the DOC released by algae differently than they process the DOC released by corals. Researchers have documented a feedback loop where sponges feed off the algal DOC and release nutrients into the water that promote algae growth which releases more DOC to feed sponges . . . The algal DOC also promotes heterotrophic microbial processes which can cause anoxic conditions around corals negatively affecting them as well as potentially promoting pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. So algae is getting a boost from the sponges and reduced competition from corals promoting a phase shift to a sponge and algae dominate system.

If PO4 drops below .03 mg/l corals can be negatively affected. Research done at SOuthampton Unicversity in England with corals maintained in a reef ssytem for over a decade showed a nitrogen/phosphorus imbalance causes phosphorus deficiency and can have very serious consiquences for corals potentially killing them. Depending on the nitrate levels the minimum PO4 needed to prevent a phosphate deficiency can be much higher. The .03 mg/l was the minimum level the researchers identified.

I get critisized for posting research but here's a data bomb anyway:

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Changing Seas - Mysterious Microbes

Nitrogen cycling in hte coral holobiont

BActeria and Sponges

Maintenance of Coral Reef Health (refferences at the end)

Optical Feedback Loop in Colorful Coral Bleaching

Richard Ross What's up with phosphate"

DOC and microbial links:

Indirect effects of algae on coral: algae‐mediated, microbe‐induced coral mortality

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality

Effects of Coral Reef Benthic Primary Producers on Dissolved Organic Carbon and Microbial Activity
Algae releases significantly more DOC into the water than coral.

Pathologies and mortality rates caused by organic carbon and nutrient stressors in three Caribbean coral species.
DOC caused coral death but not high nitrates, phosphates or ammonium.

Visualization of oxygen distribution patterns caused by coral and algae

Biological oxygen demand optode analysis of coral reef-associated microbial communities exposed to algal exudates
Exposure to exudates derived from turf algae stimulated higher oxygen drawdown by the coral-associated bacteria.

Microbial ecology: Algae feed a shift on coral reefs

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

Elevated ammonium delays the impairment of the coral-dinoflagellate symbiosis during labile carbon pollution
(here's an argument for maintaining heavy fish loads if you're carbon dosing)

Excess labile carbon promotes the expression of virulence factors in coral reef bacterioplankton

Unseen players shape benthic competition on coral reefs.

Allelochemicals Produced by Brown Macroalgae of the Lobophora Genus Are Active against Coral Larvae and Associated Bacteria, Supporting Pathogenic Shifts to Vibrio Dominance.

Macroalgae decrease growth and alter microbial community structure of the reef-building coral, Porites astreoides.

Macroalgal extracts induce bacterial assemblage shifts and sublethal tissue stress in Caribbean corals.

Biophysical and physiological processes causing oxygen loss from coral reefs.

Global microbialization of coral reefs
DDAM Proven

Coral Reef Microorganisms in a Changing Climate, Fig 3

Ecosystem Microbiology of Coral Reefs: Linking Genomic, Metabolomic, and Biogeochemical Dynamics from Animal Symbioses to Reefscape Processes

Sponge stuff

Element cycling on tropical coral reefs.
This is Jasper de Geoij's ground breaking research on reef sponge finding some species process labile DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. (The introduction is in Dutch but the content is in English.)

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

Differential recycling of coral and algal dissolved organic matter via the sponge loop.
Sponges treat DOC from algae differently than DOC from corals

A Vicious Circle? Altered Carbon and Nutrient Cycling May Explain the Low Resilience of Caribbean Coral Reefs

Surviving in a Marine Desert The Sponge Loop Retains Resources Within Coral Reefs
Dissolved organic carbon and nitrogen are quickly processed by sponges and released back into the reef food web in hours as carbon and nitrogen rich detritus.

Natural Diet of Coral-Excavating Sponges Consists Mainly of Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC)

The Role of Marine Sponges in Carbon and Nitrogen Cycles of COral Reefs and Nearshore Environments.

Sponge symbionts and the marine P cycle

Phosphorus sequestration in the form of polyphosphate by microbial symbionts in marine sponges

And since we're discussing favorable and not so favorable bacteria here's a paper looking at how different corals and polyps are influencing the bacteria in the water column.
Aura-biomes are present in the water layer above coral reef benthic macro-organisms

de Angelo and Wiedenmann's research at Southampton University

An Experimental Mesocosm for Longterm Studies of Reef Corals

Phosphate Deficiency:
Nutrient enrichment can increase the susceptibility of reef corals to bleaching:

Ultrastructural Biomarkers in Symbiotic Algae Reflect the Availability of Dissolved Inorganic Nutrients and Particulate Food to the Reef Coral Holobiont:

Phosphate deficiency promotes coral bleaching and is reflected by the ultrastructure of symbiotic dinoflagellates

Nitrogen and phosphorus stuff

Effects of phosphate on growth and skeletal density in the scleractinian coral Acropora muricata: A controlled experimental approach

High phosphate uptake requirements of the scleractinian coral Stylophora pistillata

Phosphorus metabolism of reef organisms with algal symbionts


Ammonium Uptake by Symbiotic and Aposymbiotic Reef Corals

Amino acids a source of nitrogen for corals

Urea a source of nitrogen for corals

Diazotrpophs a source of nitrogen for corals

Context Dependant Effects of Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism

And a couple of jpg's

Fig 4 from "Phosphorus Metabolism of Reef Organisms with Algal Symbionts"
DIP DOP POP.jpg

Fig. 3 from "Context Dependant Nutrient Loading on the Coral-Algal Mutualism"
Context‐dependent effects of nutrient loading on the coral–algal mutualism(1).png

Did anything you posted suggest that you answered her question about NOPOX driving algae?
 
FWIW, some sponges can directly use the components of NOPOX. That isn't necessarily good or bad, but if the goal is to reduce sponges, it may not be the best bet.

OTOH, one of the reasons I dosed vinegar was specifically because it is known to be directly used by many organisms, including sponges that I wanted to grow.
 
wow. a lot to digest. I don't want to stop nopox as the system seems happy and stable. I've never had success with vinegar or vodka alone.

What does lack of success mean?
 
What does lack of success mean?
In my old system, doing vodka, or vinegar, or my own diy never took no3 down. Toward the end of that tank, I was using nopox and had finally gotten the no3 into a more normal range. So i stick with nopox as it has worked for me. I do have some algae still in new tank even dosing and even with no3 around 13-15 and dosing po4 to keep .05
 
In my old system, doing vodka, or vinegar, or my own diy never took no3 down. Toward the end of that tank, I was using nopox and had finally gotten the no3 into a more normal range. So i stick with nopox as it has worked for me. I do have some algae still in new tank even dosing and even with no3 around 13-15 and dosing po4 to keep .05

Ok, whatever works for you, but I don’t think it’s a general result that vinegar or vodka cannot lower nitrate if delivered in sufficient quantity.
 
Did anything you posted suggest that you answered her question about NOPOX driving algae?

For starters it seems pretty obvious from the research posted corals and algae are competing with each other for nutrients. NoPox is adds carbon to a system to promote bacterial growth. Kline's paper above, "Role of elevated organic carbon levels and microbial activity in coral mortality", shows increasing the microbial load on a coral, even if it's with beneficial microbes, can cause bleaching and even be lethal. Beside affecting having a potentially lethal effect with beneficial microbes it seems pretty clear from the research adding labile carbon to a reef system to promote bacterial growth runs the risk of reducing oxygen levels in the coral microbiome by causing anoxic conditions as well as potentially promoting pathogens in the coral microbiome. It seems pretty straight forward to me once a phosphate deficiency is caused in a coral and disrupts its mutualistic relashionsips by lowering phosphates algae is going to be able to take over.
 
Ok, whatever works for you, but I don’t think it’s a general result that vinegar or vodka cannot lower nitrate if delivered in sufficient quantity.
it is entirely possible that I didn't dose high enough. I don't recall what I was dosing but I think it was more than what I dose nopox. I think it was prob. close to at least double the nopox but it is a different system so apples to oranges.

what would the advantage be of either changing to vinegar or vodka or mixing my own diy nopox. Aside from money...

If nopox is contributing to algae than it is something I may consider
 

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