SPS Experts: Can you figure it out?

[gig 'em]

Well on Saturday I broke the tank down, dipped all the corals 30 minutes in a witches hazel bath, then 30 minutes in a Lugol's bath, then 30 minutes in a KCl bath. I then rinsed the sand with tank water and did a 100% water change. I removed all the GHA and palys I could find while I was at it. Took around 9 hours, but I got everything back in. So far only minor casualties, most just select branches of certain corals, but no 100% losses of corals from the process. It's difficult to tell at the moment what is loss from stress or if it's continued RTN. I did toss a couple of colonies that were too far gone and weren't worth risking putting back in. Fingers crossed that the issues are resolved!

Mid drain

Tank after everything was back in

 

[dragon99]

Well on Saturday I broke the tank down, dipped all the corals 30 minutes in a witches hazel bath, then 30 minutes in a Lugol's bath, then 30 minutes in a KCl bath. I then rinsed the sand with tank water and did a 100% water change. I removed all the GHA and palys I could find while I was at it. Took around 9 hours, but I got everything back in. So far only minor casualties, most just select branches of certain corals, but no 100% losses of corals from the process. It's difficult to tell at the moment what is loss from stress or if it's continued RTN. I did toss a couple of colonies that were too far gone and weren't worth risking putting back in. Fingers crossed that the issues are resolved!

I can literally feel your pain (although I think you're younger than I am, so maybe you're fine). We apparently had similar weekends. I had to relocate my tank Saturday, I spent 8hrs removing everything. moving the tank across the house, and putting it back.

Really hope this makes a difference for you! Farmers Fight!

 

[vanpire]

WOW. That has to be tough. What strength did you use on each of the dip solutions.

How did you clean the tank itself?

I am amazed at the 100% water change. I hope it works. I might have to do the same if this process works out.

I don't see any fish so I assume that you didn't have to treat the fish.

You used he same rock and sand?

 

[ReefPiracy]

I always go back to basics when some system thing is off. All UV biopellets, carbon, gfo go off line. RO is always added so always think of city water and if they added any disinfectants. Your running a dual membrane?? So waste into 2nd stage? Chloromines are nasty to a reef tank and only one filter I found is good at removing it.

 

[tripdad]

I hope this works out for you. Losses, slow losses just drain the fun out of the hobby. So far my reset is going well so hoping the same for you.

 

[Jettareefer223]

Well on Saturday I broke the tank down, dipped all the corals 30 minutes in a witches hazel bath, then 30 minutes in a Lugol's bath, then 30 minutes in a KCl bath. I then rinsed the sand with tank water and did a 100% water change. I removed all the GHA and palys I could find while I was at it. Took around 9 hours, but I got everything back in. So far only minor casualties, most just select branches of certain corals, but no 100% losses of corals from the process. It's difficult to tell at the moment what is loss from stress or if it's continued RTN. I did toss a couple of colonies that were too far gone and weren't worth risking putting back in. Fingers crossed that the issues are resolved!

Mid drain

Tank after everything was back in

Any updates? Hope all is well!

 

[gig 'em]

Any updates? Hope all is well!

I've been traveling a lot recently, so I don't have any photos to share. Last I checked, my Hawkins echinata was STNing, but I imagine the change in lighting and environmental conditions is the cause there. Hawkins is so delicate sometimes, I would lose frags of it when I moved them to a higher frag rack...

 

[aqua_code]

Are you dosing triton elements or you just do the tests? I ask because I also see you are running biopellets. I've read a few threads and experienced first hand some negative reactions from SPS to biopellets.

In this thread a user suggests the biopellets can be feeding bacteria leading to tissue loss.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/m...llets-reactor-please-help.405661/post-4832706

I would remove the biopellets as suggested above and see if that helps. Hope things turn around for your tank.

 

[Jettareefer223]

I've been traveling a lot recently, so I don't have any photos to share. Last I checked, my Hawkins echinata was STNing, but I imagine the change in lighting and environmental conditions is the cause there. Hawkins is so delicate sometimes, I would lose frags of it when I moved them to a higher frag rack...

I was just curious. I’m in Texas as well I too have a crazy RO/DI setup 8 stages dual membrane to combat the chloramines. Just recently I started experiencing stn from the base up on my mature colonies (acro’s/monti’s). My first hypothesis on the issue was to blame incoming water, after replacing sediment filter, both membranes, resins, 3 catalytic carbons canisters nothing changed. I switch salt mixes (turned the tank over nearly twice)/replaced my dosing elements. As well as check all equipment for failure or corrosion, or any foreign objects never found anything wrong stn continued. I ended cutting small frags of all the colonies with stn all the frags end up making it and encrusting quickly. I got to a point where I felt it was bacterial like you mention earlier in this thread. I had similar issues in the past once I removed my sandbed stn immediately stopped. I had planned rescaping my tank anyways, so I took the dive went for broke tore the tank down going BB, removing as much LR as possible, sanitizing the tank, throwing any corals beyond help in the trash, and anything w/ stn I wanted to save I used super glue to cap/cut off the stn and/or chopped the colony up. Immediately it slowed even with the stress of handling/overhaul, and haven’t seen any further stn progression. I didn’t change much water at all maybe 10-15% (it seemed make the stn worst ime, the risk’s out weighed the benefit’s). The other thing I hadn’t added anything to the tank in 6 plus months never had stn flare ups in this tank. I had a few frags rtn right after getting running there’s nothing notable in terms problems preceding what I experienced.

In terms of let’s say “bad bacteria” that colonizes in our systems which could possibly trigger sps corals to experience tissue necrosis any chance a sandbed would compound or possibly be the root of the issue. I say this because sand obliviously host lots of beneficial bacteria. I had seeded tank heavy running a partial zeovit system for the first 9-10 months as side note. I’ll openly admit to poorly maintain mine other then detritivores/fish disturbing it I never stir or vac them running heavy bioloads, but 2 different tanks both stn events 2-4 year mark with sand removal it stops. Whether direct or indirect maybe the saturation of something building up over time could stress the more established colonies. I know it can be a million different things no one truly knows for sure, but with your background in microbiology I was go see what your thoughts on the above were.

 

[aqua_code]

In my experience STN and RTN are caused by lack of trace elements, swings, and/or in this case biopellets/carbon dosing. Even with triton method, I experienced STN when keeping my ALK stable. This was because my iodine, nickel, and other elements were too low from 0 water changes. Now I choose to do 1-2% water changes every day and that seems to really help. I've also found that RTN/STN can be delayed, so it's hard to say something directly causes it. If the temp goes through a major swing, the corals may not respond immediately - but you may see tissue loss in 1-2 days.

The first question I would ask someone with RTN is how often do you do water changes, and has your temperature/alkalinity/calcium been stable. In this case it seems like all of those elements are in check.

 

[gig 'em]

Update:

I've been out of town for 8 days and just returned home. To me it looks like coral health has rebounded to a level not seen in over a year. Colors of my SC OP are finally returning and I;m seeing more blue and green that was dim/nonexistent a month ago. PE is looking good and I don't see any STN outside of the areas on the Hawkins echinata that were bleached when I left on my trip. I'll continue to monitor the coral health and report. I have seen tiny bits of GHA popping up in areas that aren't easily accessed by my grazers. So I'll have to work on keeping the GHA at bay in those areas so it doesn't take hold again.

 

[Brandon McHenry]

Update:

I've been out of town for 8 days and just returned home. To me it looks like coral health has rebounded to a level not seen in over a year. Colors of my SC OP are finally returning and I;m seeing more blue and green that was dim/nonexistent a month ago. PE is looking good and I don't see any STN outside of the areas on the Hawkins echinata that were bleached when I left on my trip. I'll continue to monitor the coral health and report. I have seen tiny bits of GHA popping up in areas that aren't easily accessed by my grazers. So I'll have to work on keeping the GHA at bay in those areas so it doesn't take hold again.

Great news that things are looking up! You have a strong will to keep up with trying to solve such an challenging problem. The new aquascape looks great and I hope things continue to improve! Looking forward to hearing how things do in the future!

 

[ZaneTer]

What would you attribute the turn around to?

 

[ZaneTer]

double post

 

[Tautog]

I feel your pain.
I also lost my sponges, but didn’t think much of it. I was treating my tank for Apitasa, but it’s gone like everything else. My only corals that aren’t dying are a War coral (I’ve had it for 5 yrs), some mushrooms, some Zoas, and Fl. Ricordias, and they keep reproducing. My alkalinity doesn’t change much at all, and no Ca consumption. WC’s every 2 weeks, and now every week. Still, there’s no light at the end of this tunnel. I thought high alkalinity was the issue using RC, and I’ve done the same routine every time while mixing, just never tested it for high alkalinity, only salinity, 1.024. The only change I did was trying TM bio salt. I added it to my RC, about 20%, as recommended by the TM rep at MACHA last year. My problems started soon after. I wish I never went to that show, and never, ever met that rep that convinced me to use his product. I’m from a German family background, and should have listened to my gut and hard family upbringing, Never, Ever, for Whatever Reason Ever try to fix something that isn’t broken! Thank You TM for screwing my system up and killing my corals. I’m sure I have a bacterial problem! Yep, I’m ranting, I was married to my tank, and did everything manually. Now, I want a Divoice!

 

[gig 'em]

What would you attribute the turn around to?

That's going to be very difficult to put my finger on since so many variables were changed at once. My gut feeling is the removal of GHA and the removal of a decent amount of detritus built up in the sand. I hypothesize that the microbial balance has been swinging out of wack for the past year as different biological factors took more control over others. I saw the rise and fall of fan worms, sponges, and GHA. It seemed to me like there never was a solid and healthy microbial balance and the corals were suffering because of it. I felt that a total removal of the rocks and 100% of the water was needed to help reset the ecosystem and start it back at a different life stage. I also dipped the corals in 3 different dips in case there was something causing harm to the corals. Too many variables changed at once to make a solid conclusion.

 

[gig 'em]

I feel your pain.
I also lost my sponges, but didn’t think much of it. I was treating my tank for Apitasa, but it’s gone like everything else. My only corals that aren’t dying are a War coral (I’ve had it for 5 yrs), some mushrooms, some Zoas, and Fl. Ricordias, and they keep reproducing. My alkalinity doesn’t change much at all, and no Ca consumption. WC’s every 2 weeks, and now every week. Still, there’s no light at the end of this tunnel. I thought high alkalinity was the issue using RC, and I’ve done the same routine every time while mixing, just never tested it for high alkalinity, only salinity, 1.024. The only change I did was trying TM bio salt. I added it to my RC, about 20%, as recommended by the TM rep at MACHA last year. My problems started soon after. I wish I never went to that show, and never, ever met that rep that convinced me to use his product. I’m from a German family background, and should have listened to my gut and hard family upbringing, Never, Ever, for Whatever Reason Ever try to fix something that isn’t broken! Thank You TM for screwing my system up and killing my corals. I’m sure I have a bacterial problem! Yep, I’m ranting, I was married to my tank, and did everything manually. Now, I want a Divoice!

Dang! Sorry to hear that, that is very frustrating. So you saw a direct correlation between switching to Tropic Marin Bio-Actif Salt and when your issues started to happen? As a scientist, it bugs me when vendors offer a product with vague descriptive language that doesn't exactly tell you what's in it. I understand that they need to protect their products from being replicated, but unless they list the possible reactions and effects that can occur when using their products with others, I personally find it hard to trust when adding it to a tank full of animals.

 

[Reefkeeper12]

Very sorry to hear about your issues! Its always tough to lose parts of the reef that we care for, especially when they are as beautiful as yours! I will say that in my time keeping SPS (which is probably not as many as most of the experts here) I have had two issues similar to this with random die off. The first was in relation to what I can only assume was a bacterial disease. I had colonies that I had grown for years start to STN and RTN randomly. Sometimes this happened from the bottom and sometimes from random spots on the coral. I wound up putting a UV sterilizer on the tank and the problem never reared its ugly head again. The corals recovered from that point forward. I cannot say for sure if it was disease or if the UV sterilizer was the ultimate cure, but I would guess that it was. I will also add that where I work, at FAU Harbor Branch Oceanographic Institute, we have a research team studying coral disease and they say that it can be transferred between coral several ways. Dying tissue breaking off and touching other corals, direct contact between corals, our hands or equipment as well as transfer through the water column are all ways that can potentially move disease.

The second time that I had my major issues, which ultimately led to the end of my SPS reef, was due to temperature. After hurricane Irma we were without power for over a week. Despite having power to run the pumps and oxygenate the water, I did not have a chiller. I ran fans and ice bottles in the tank to try to keep the water cool, but the tank still rose to around 85 degrees. After the power came back the tank ran for over a month before I started to see any issues. I thought I was in the clear until I found out just how long it can take signs of stress to manifest into symptoms within coral.

I know that these are both issues that you may have already considered/have contingencies for but I wanted to share my experiences. I sincerely hope that you are able to find a solution to this problem you are dealing with. Please keep us posted!

What kind of uv sterilizer do you use for what size tank? I’m considering getting one but not sure which to get.

 

[Tautog]

Dang! Sorry to hear that, that is very frustrating. So you saw a direct correlation between switching to Tropic Marin Bio-Actif Salt and when your issues started to happen? As a scientist, it bugs me when vendors offer a product with vague descriptive language that doesn't exactly tell you what's in it. I understand that they need to protect their products from being replicated, but unless they list the possible reactions and effects that can occur when using their products with others, I personally find it hard to trust when adding it to a tank full of animals.

Just goes to prove, never listen to anybody that says their product is everyone’s answer to growing corals. In fact, this guy was the regional supervisor or manager for the NE, and I’ll never forget what he said, “wait to you see how incredible your reef tank will be!” Yep, there’s a big difference! I wish I had gone to this years show with only one purpose........find this guy, take him for a ride.........one way. 5 + yrs wasted. I’ll never buy Topic Marin products ever!

 

[Z3speed4me]

I feel your pain!

Situations like this show how little we still know about this hobby. I am dealing with a similar situation and I really hope one day we can collectively figure this out. Started with my Walt (which has been crazy hardy until recently), then moved to my bonsai, now my orange passion is taking the hit.

Other things like multiple mille's, red planet, pc rainbow look better than ever... go figure!? UGH