SPS in Distress

PeterG · Jan 30, 2019

I need some advice. My SPS have been looking very unhappy over the past couple of weeks. Green slimer acropora getting brown tips, Montipora went from bright orange to a rusty brownish grey and my stylopora pistillata which looked like a small head of broccoli has now got some bare spots with white skeleton showing thru.
My 90 gal tank is about 1.5 yr old lit by 2 AI Hydra 26 Hd.

No changes to lighting or flow of late. Only change is in late Nov I added a BRS 2-canister GFO/Carbon reactor as my phosphates were running high. I also started being more diligent with my 2-part dosing of Ca & Alk to keep the Alk at 8.8-9.0 dKH as BRS recommends.

When I first noticed my corals in distress, I checked R2R for guidance. What I’m finding is conflicting info on ideal levels for Alk and the relative value of a GFO reactors. Not sure what to do next. My fish are healthy and active, my softies and LPS all seem to be thriving and there is plenty of coralline algae growth.

I’ve shut down my GFO reactor and am letting my Alk drop down to 7.5 dKH

I did a 25 gal water change on Jan 13th after taking the Jan 12th. readings.

Jan 12 / Jan 27

pH - 8.2 (red sea) / pH - 8.2 (RS)
Salinity - 1.025 / Salinity - 1.025
NO3 - 12-16ppm (RS) / NO3 - 8-12ppm (RS)
NH4 - 0ppm (RS) / NH4 - 0ppm (RS)
Ca - 430 ppm (RS) / Ca - 1415ppm (RS)
dKH - 8.8 (avg of RS & Hanna) / dKH - 7.5 (avg RS & Hanna)
Mg - 1440 (RS) / Mg - 1280 (RS)
PO4 - .034 (Hanna) / PO4 - .177ppm

No improvement in any of the corals and I’m not sure what to do next.

RobZilla04 · Jan 30, 2019

GFO long term can increase a heavy metal level in the water or bind trace elements making them deficient. You can get an ICP test to confirm your levels. Since you pulled it offline, I'd leave the Alk where it was. Just do a couple of water changes in the range of 20-25% over a couple of weeks. Aminos dosed conservatively may help any stressed frags/colonies.

Reduce feeding to compensate for the GFO being offline. I see the rise from 1/12 to 1/27.

Be wary of making too many changes too quickly.

The ICP test may reveal other irritating metals such as tin. You can search the sump for the possibility something is rusting. Same with magnets, hinges, light fixtures and hardware.

jda · Jan 30, 2019

This is probably a residual from if you dropped the po4 too quickly. GFO use does not have to cause issues, but is sure can. Slow, steady and leaving some po4 behind for the tank can be fine, but large amounts and quick application can stress SPS. The differences in opinions on GFO come from the way that they have been used.

It can take months for color to return to SPS. If everything else look good, then just wait it out. If the coralline is thriving and becoming a nuisance, then the SPS will soon follow.

You cannot really stress coral out and then use LED on them. LEDs can cause issues that you might not have had with the same stress under different kind of lights. The white spots are likely from this - you don't really see this under T5 or MH with stressed corals. The lights are not the issue, they were just around with the other issues occurred, but you might want to turn them down 10% and then ramp them back up over a week, or so.

PeterG · Jan 30, 2019

RobZilla04 said:
GFO long term can increase a heavy metal level in the water or bind trace elements making them deficient. You can get an ICP test to confirm your levels. Since you pulled it offline, I'd leave the Alk where it was. Just do a couple of water changes in the range of 20-25% over a couple of weeks. Aminos dosed conservatively may help any stressed frags/colonies.

Reduce feeding to compensate for the GFO being offline. I see the rise from 1/12 to 1/27.

Be wary of making too many changes too quickly.

The ICP test may reveal other irritating metals such as tin. You can search the sump for the possibility something is rusting. Same with magnets, hinges, light fixtures and hardware.

I did an ICP test a couple months back and all my numbers were great. Nothing new in sump and visual inspection does not reveal any metal fragments.
I do feed Reef Chili a couple times a week and Seachem Fuel on an irregular basis whenever I think of it.
Before GFO I was using PoPoX to keep PO4 in check. without it PO4 ran as high as .36 at one point. Only used GFO for about 6wks before reading that it can affect corals.
Trying to cut down by feeding smaller amounts more often. I feed about a 1" sq. of LRS a pinch of PE pellets and several drops of Selcon every other day. I feed a small amt with a baster 2-3 times during the day. I do this every other day alternating with a cube of PE Mysis and a cube of Brine shrimp again with a pinch of pellets. I've got nine fish and they seem to get most of the food before it hits bottom. CUC includes snails, crabs, couple of conchs and a peppermint shrimp.

PeterG · Jan 30, 2019

jda said:
This is probably a residual from if you dropped the po4 too quickly. GFO use does not have to cause issues, but is sure can. Slow, steady and leaving some po4 behind for the tank can be fine, but large amounts and quick application can stress SPS. The differences in opinions on GFO come from the way that they have been used.

It can take months for color to return to SPS. If everything else look good, then just wait it out. If the coralline is thriving and becoming a nuisance, then the SPS will soon follow.

You cannot really stress coral out and then use LED on them. LEDs can cause issues that you might not have had with the same stress under different kind of lights. The white spots are likely from this - you don't really see this under T5 or MH with stressed corals. The lights are not the issue, they were just around with the other issues occurred, but you might want to turn them down 10% and then ramp them back up over a week, or so.

Possible that GFO dropped PO4 too quickly but it seemed like numbers went steadily down over six weeks once GFO added. Now that I've stopped it, PO4 rising again.
Will try reducing lights for a while and slowly ramping back up. I know my Monti lost it's color once before and came back so there is hope for it but the Stylopora is looking pretty ill. Maybe I should stick to LPS and softies; they seem to thrive in my tank and garner the most oohs and ahs.

jda · Jan 30, 2019

If you are skimming, then I would not expect any metals to show up on a ICP test. Don't sweat this.

Organic Carbon (NoPoX) is not always great in a reef. I would not sweat .36 phosphate. I like mine lower, but i would not chase it there with organic carbon.

Stopping the Reef Chili and Fuel can help a lot - it probably all goes straight to the nitrogen cycle and ends up as N and P. There is no evidence anywhere that SPS need or can use any of this in it's original form. Washing that mysis can help with N and P on the back end as well - again, nothing can really eat it but bacteria and microfauna and the corals get nothing from it. The LPS might be able to eat some of this, but they really don't need it and they seem to thrive just fine without.

If you really want to keep your N and P down, then do the above and get a nice fuge online. Sponges, macro and micro organisms can really help lower these and are no risk to drop them to true-zero where growth is limited... they always leave some building blocks to drive the equilibrium going forward and never take them all. On the converse, chemicals and media like Organic Carbon, GFO and Lanthum Chloride can take them all.

jda · Jan 30, 2019

If you wanted to use GFO, a few tablespoons for a 100G tank changed every few days with a super-slow water rate. You want to just steadily lower it and not have dips and spikes.

The dips come from fresh GFO. The spikes are the aragonite releasing bound phosphate back into the water because you lower it with the GFO. Aragonite can bind/hold a massive amount of phosphate.

The best use of GFO is to just absorb a tiny bit so that the aragonite release pretty much balances out the uptake by the GFO. This way is slow and it takes some time, but lowering .01 every few days is better than lowering .20 in a few hours and then have it climb back .19 in the next little bit after that.

PeterG · Jan 30, 2019

jda said:
If you are skimming, then I would not expect any metals to show up on a ICP test. Don't sweat this.

Organic Carbon (NoPoX) is not always great in a reef. I would not sweat .36 phosphate. I like mine lower, but i would not chase it there with organic carbon.

Stopping the Reef Chili and Fuel can help a lot - it probably all goes straight to the nitrogen cycle and ends up as N and P. There is no evidence anywhere that SPS need or can use any of this in it's original form. Washing that mysis can help with N and P on the back end as well - again, nothing can really eat it but bacteria and microfauna and the corals get nothing from it. The LPS might be able to eat some of this, but they really don't need it and they seem to thrive just fine without.

If you really want to keep your N and P down, then do the above and get a nice fuge online. Sponges, macro and micro organisms can really help lower these and are no risk to drop them to true-zero where growth is limited... they always leave some building blocks to drive the equilibrium going forward and never take them all. On the converse, chemicals and media like Organic Carbon, GFO and Lanthum Chloride can take them all.

Thanks for the tips. Easy to eliminate extra feeding. I'm skimming with an older Eshopps and would like to add a fuge but need to upgrade to a larger sump first. The existing one is only 15 gal and between that and my ATO bucket the whole area below the tank is pretty much occupied. I moved the return pump into the sump a few mos back to free up some room but the thought of replumbing makes me nervous.

Clutch · Jan 30, 2019

I used carbon and gfo in my system and I never like the results it works too well. I ended up adding a refugium it’s doesn’t strip everything from my water

PeterG · Jan 31, 2019

jda said:
If you wanted to use GFO, a few tablespoons for a 100G tank changed every few days with a super-slow water rate. You want to just steadily lower it and not have dips and spikes.

The dips come from fresh GFO. The spikes are the aragonite releasing bound phosphate back into the water because you lower it with the GFO. Aragonite can bind/hold a massive amount of phosphate.

The best use of GFO is to just absorb a tiny bit so that the aragonite release pretty much balances out the uptake by the GFO. This way is slow and it takes some time, but lowering .01 every few days is better than lowering .20 in a few hours and then have it climb back .19 in the next little bit after that.

Thanks again. I have the BRS Dual Reactor and they recommend .7 cups (5.6 fl oz) of their High Capacity GFO.
Should just put a few tablespoons into the canister rather than their commended dosage? Should I continue using Carbon?
What Alk level do you suggest?

jda · Jan 31, 2019

Please don't ever listen to a supplier or manufacturer for much. While they mean well, their experiences with GFO and Organic Carbon have misled a lot of people and caused a lot of damage. You should not be using either on a tank less than a year old, never from the start. The use needs to be very acute looking to solve only a small range of problems.

I like to keep my alk around 7 like natural seawater, but I also use a CaRx and it stays very stable. YYMV, but 8-10 is safe for a lot of people with some room for error.

PeterG · Jan 31, 2019

jda said:
Please don't ever listen to a supplier or manufacturer for much. While they mean well, their experiences with GFO and Organic Carbon have misled a lot of people and caused a lot of damage. You should not be using either on a tank less than a year old, never from the start. The use needs to be very acute looking to solve only a small range of problems.

I like to keep my alk around 7 like natural seawater, but I also use a CaRx and it stays very stable. YYMV, but 8-10 is safe for a lot of people with some room for error.

Thanks again JDA. My tank is now about 1.5 yr old. I started using the GFO & Carbon reactors after water tests showed elevated PO4 and I was having to clean my glass every other day or so to get rid of that green algae film. R2R is where I learned about GFO and that brought me to BRS. I've bought a lot of stuff from them and I guess I trust them as they provide lots of tutorials on most everything they sell.
BRS is also the source of the info that suggested an Alk level of 9dKH. Wondering now if the culprit was the GFO rather than the Alk level.
Started in this hobby after someone offered me a "free" fishtank back in summer of '17. I'm loving this hobby but it is the most complex pastime I have ever indulged in. Wouldn't have made it this far without R2R and its generous and knowledgeable members.

kendavjac · Jan 31, 2019

I'm curious as to why you are dropping your alkalinity. IMO, stability is more important then the actual number (assuming its in a normal range of ~7-11). I think you the GFO and alkalinity changes are your culprit. Not that either are wrong, just not what the coral is used to so it got stressed. Don't be afraid of a little NO3 and PO4 as long as you don't start developing a hair algae problem and the corals are happy.

Gregg @ ADP · Feb 1, 2019

PeterG said:
Thanks again JDA. My tank is now about 1.5 yr old. I started using the GFO & Carbon reactors after water tests showed elevated PO4 and I was having to clean my glass every other day or so to get rid of that green algae film. R2R is where I learned about GFO and that brought me to BRS. I've bought a lot of stuff from them and I guess I trust them as they provide lots of tutorials on most everything they sell.
BRS is also the source of the info that suggested an Alk level of 9dKH. Wondering now if the culprit was the GFO rather than the Alk level.
Started in this hobby after someone offered me a "free" fishtank back in summer of '17. I'm loving this hobby but it is the most complex pastime I have ever indulged in. Wouldn't have made it this far without R2R and its generous and knowledgeable members.

How did the corals look before you dropped the PO4?

Charlie’s Frags · Feb 1, 2019

What Are your hydra settings? Total watts?

PeterG · Feb 1, 2019

kendavjac said:
I'm curious as to why you are dropping your alkalinity. IMO, stability is more important then the actual number (assuming its in a normal range of ~7-11). I think you the GFO and alkalinity changes are your culprit. Not that either are wrong, just not what the coral is used to so it got stressed. Don't be afraid of a little NO3 and PO4 as long as you don't start developing a hair algae problem and the corals are happy.

I dropped the Alk after noticing that the corals were looking distressed and then reading on R2R forum that Alk might be the cause. A number of posters suggested Alk more in the 7-7.5 range than the 9.0 I had been maintaining.
Green algae film on the glass is what initially prompted me to look at NO3 and PO4 levels.

PeterG · Feb 1, 2019

Gregg @ ADP said:
How did the corals look before you dropped the PO4?

Corals were doing OK. Not great but everything was holding it's own with modest growth. I have no idea how much SPS coral should grow in any given period of time.