Sps sudden pigment loss

[sfin52]

I recommend that you dose po4 and No3

 

[Graffiti Spot]

Make sure your heater is working right, that and sudden stray voltage from power heads and pumps can cause sudden color loss like that. I would not attribute sudden color loss to low nutrients especially in a tank that was running low nutrients for a while successfully. Seems everyone jumps on nitrates showing zero as the cause of color problems often these days. Not saying it couldn't be but temp, voltage, broke heaters and such things cause white corals quick. Even sudden nutrient fluctuations will cause things like rtn or halted growth but I have not noticed bleaching personally. Maybe a sudden drop in phosphates could pale coral, not saying that's your case though.
Make sure you go through all the simple basic things, it's normally a simple answer to these problems. Good luck!

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

That's not what he's saying. Okay, there's a whole bunch of reading that needs to be done on your end. I'm going to give you a basic rundown of what goes on in our tanks, and how one thing leads to another.

Firstly: He's telling you to lower your lights until you have more nutrients because your corals may be getting burned from 'too much light' -- But why does that have anything to do with Nitrates? Too much light is too much light, right?

No. It's not.

Light is relative to Nutrients. Nutrients are relative to light. This means if your tank had nutrients, your same exact lighting may not be too much. Conversely, if you have exceptionally high nutrients, your lights may be too low.. It's all relative, and linked together.

Second: Alkalinity is part of the equation. Alkalinity can be high or low, sure, but it's combated by relative light, and nutrients. Tanks with higher Alk and lower nutrients are more likely to be burned by the Alk concentration, regardless of light -- Which does NOT mean light DOESN'T matter.. It's just another wrench in the equation.

Third (just to emphasize the complexity): Flow is ALSO part of this in general -- Not necessarily in your case right now, but in general it's part of the equation.


Taking care of a reef is like a pyramid. You need to start with the foundation, and the foundation needs to be balanced so that layers can be built upon one another. The triangle of Lights / Alkalinity / Nutrients must be in order for you to build up to the next tier of issues. Such as Flow, trace, feedings, then further, and so on.

Now what needs to be cared for AFTER the triangle of Lights/Alkalinity/Nutrients is all up to interpretation. But without those three things in check, you're going to have trouble with the entire pyramid that is your system.

When you read about people dosing trace elements, people talking about dosing amino acids (protein compounds), feeding, etc etc.. That type of stuff is very high up on the pyramid. And it's all good stuff to know, but frankly, there's a LOT of information you need to learn before that point.

Basic math analogy here -- Newer reefers jump in the deep end, and decide they really, really need to learn Calculus. The problem is, they never learn how to add and subtract first. You can't take calculus until you understand the basic foundations.

So my advice here, some basic ideas, some basic number chasing.

Step 1: Read everything you can. Ask questions. Look for correlations. Watch for reactions to actions -- What do I mean?

Here's an example -- Count the number of threads in the SPS section that start like this "HALP I can't SPS", inside the thread it always goes like this, every single time. "okay, here's my parameters ---> 0 nitrates, 0 phosphates"

That's a trend you should notice. That's one of the many, many examples that you can see here dozens of times per day.

Step 2: These are basic numbers, make these happen slowly
no3: 2-5ppm
po4: 0.05ppm
dKH: 7.5-8

Step 3: Buy kn03 (I like NilocG), buy Phosphorous (I like Seachem Phos).

Step 4: Worry about the foundation. Not the tip of the pyramid.

Must have misunderstood him, I took it as “your nitrates will rise when you lessen your light”. Thanks for clarifying.

Thank you also for the insight regarding the relations between light, alk, and nutrients. I wouldn’t consider myself a new reefer so while I do only have a basic understanding of the chemistry, I already knew much of the above.

I’ll increase feeding quantity and reduce skimming before dosing NO3 & PO4. But will look at some of those products down the road if need be.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

Everything has a breaking point. Something doesn't die until it dies, up until that moment you can swear "well, it's been that way for x, why would it be different now".

While this is accurate, I’m extremely doubtful that 8 different colonies (of 6 different sps species) would all reach their ‘breaking point’ in the same night. The colonies are all still alive and have excellent PE, and the pigment of the polyps have hardly changed at all. Nearly all pigment loss occurred on the bodies of the colonies. For example, Here are pics of my rainbow monti before and after the whitening event.

(Whole colony isn’t visible.. must have been knocked over)

It’s much more visible in person; the vibrant blue undertone it once had is now fairly dim.

I’m very convinced that something else caused all this to happen.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

Make sure your heater is working right, that and sudden stray voltage from power heads and pumps can cause sudden color loss like that. I would not attribute sudden color loss to low nutrients especially in a tank that was running low nutrients for a while successfully. Seems everyone jumps on nitrates showing zero as the cause of color problems often these days. Not saying it couldn't be but temp, voltage, broke heaters and such things cause white corals quick. Even sudden nutrient fluctuations will cause things like rtn or halted growth but I have not noticed bleaching personally. Maybe a sudden drop in phosphates could pale coral, not saying that's your case though.
Make sure you go through all the simple basic things, it's normally a simple answer to these problems. Good luck!

I don’t have the tools to test for stray voltage, but all of my equipment has been well kept (with the exception of my now flickering refugium light). If sudden stray voltage does cause pigment loss like this then I wouldn’t be surprised if my light was the culprit.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

Think it was missed that your Alk is very low if that is correct. What is it normally?

It’s normally 5-6.. I use Coralife salt which mimics ocean parameters. I used to manually dose an Alk buffer but the cons outweighed the pros, especially in regards to my zoanthids.

 

[markalot]

It’s normally 5-6.. I use Coralife salt which mimics ocean parameters. I used to manually dose an Alk buffer but the cons outweighed the pros, especially in regards to my zoanthids.

Ocean Alk is 6.7 KH, 6.1 in colder areas. You seem to be missing some fundamentals here, or are making a typo. :0) If you go much below 6 KH SPS (and other corals) will start to suffer, if you drop to 5 things are very stressed. Once too stressed things start to die and that can be a tipping point as water pollution spikes. You ask a question, what can cause acros to suddenly lose color, I think you have your answer.

Get a doser on that tank or fix your doser / reactor so that KH stays around 7. The more successful you are the faster Alk is going to be used up, and you best get used to sudden tipping points because they happen. This is why we all like to use the phrase: only bad things happen quickly in a reef tank. You need to dose two part, both Alk and Calcium, in equal parts based on the Alk usage.

Having a successful SPS reef is a blast, but also like driving a really fast car on a winding road.

 

[Rakie]

You seem to be missing some fundamentals here

That's what I'm seeing, by way of choices being made.

I’m very convinced that something else caused all this to happen.

Well you say your corals are whitening, or 'losing pigment'. They are shedding their zooxanthellae because they are extremely aggravated.

Now you may not like hearing this, but you asked for help, and here it is; You're lacking some fundamental knowledge. OR, you're failing to apply that knowladge --- Alk is low. Nutrients are non-existant. And you can't tell your corals are stressed from being in an inadequate environment.

The definition of Insanity is -- Doing the same thing over again, and expecting different results.

This happened before. This happened again.

The poor things can't talk, but your tank is screaming at you none the less my friend -- Take the hint.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

That's what I'm seeing, by way of choices being made.



Well you say your corals are whitening, or 'losing pigment'. They are shedding their zooxanthellae because they are extremely aggravated.

Now you may not like hearing this, but you asked for help, and here it is; You're lacking some fundamental knowledge. OR, you're failing to apply that knowladge --- Alk is low. Nutrients are non-existant. And you can't tell your corals are stressed from being in an inadequate environment.

The definition of Insanity is -- Doing the same thing over again, and expecting different results.

This happened before. This happened again.

The poor things can't talk, but your tank is screaming at you none the less my friend -- Take the hint.

I’m greatly appreciative that you are taking the time to assist me with this, even if I sound defensive or otherwise.

I’m just still confused on a few things..
Alk, lighting, and nutrients have all been fairly consistent since the tank was set up (going on 2 years). That being said, why after the first whitening event did all the colonies end up regaining pigment? Along with that, I’ve also had some stellar growth.

My current course of action includes: discontinuing the use of ‘coral vitalizer’, turning off the skimmer, adding live bottled zooxanthelae, and increasing w/c frequency.

Down the road I may look into grabbing a 2 part doser as @markalot suggested.

 

[Rakie]

Yes I see what you're saying -- But why would they shed their zooxanthellae again if they were happy?

We can play the rhetorical question game all day long. But it doesn't matter, because corals only do this when they're unhappy. That means something isn't right.

I made a horrible mistake: by not calibrating my refractometer for like a year, the salinity slipped by 0.006 -- that means my water was 1.020 when I had thought it was proper. I still had color, and growth -- But that doesn't mean it was 'right', it just means corals are more hearty than you'd think. -- What am i alluding to here? My salinity was consistent too. Consistently bad. I still had good growth and color. Doesn't mean it couldn't be better.

A two part doser: is pretty much required for hard corals. Your zoas probably don't like the alk spike you create by dosing large amounts at once. Ideally, you want to dose tiny amounts all day long. Most people run their doser 12-24x per day. Some of the more particular reefers like Julian Sprung dose Alkalinity every 10 minutes. To me, things like this are another hint.

Next: Trying to replicate NSW levels is a fools errand, because we can't even begin to fathom the complex chemical reactions that happen in our oceans. In one liter of salt water there's an average of over 100 billion virus, and we know what a COUPLE of them do... A couple, out of hundreds of billions. We cannot replicate this. Additionally, corals in the wild have an infinite amount of phytoplankton -- And I've heard no mention of you running a phytoplankton reactor.

You don't have the ocean. You have a synthetic environment. If you want result, start doing what people who have results do.

Lastly (and most cruelly): I'm gonna be honest here -- Not one of those corals you showed were impressive. Some pics are pale colors. Some pics show beige bodies. And all of them are green except the digi in the background. Unless you purposefully picked nothing but green corals, SPS turn green when water chemistry is messed up (or say, when Iron is high). Do a search for "SPS Turning Green" -- It's not a good thing, it's a warning that things are off.

Alk, 7-8
No3, 2-5
po4, 0.05

There's nothing wrong with trying to reinvent the wheel. But you don't know how the wheel works yet -- If you can't see what were saying, you aren't looking close enough.

Beating arund the bush never helped anybody -- And being defensive will only make people not want to help you. I'd rather you be mad at me, but successful. So you can keep asking, but that up there is the truth. I'm far from the only person who said it, but you've ignored every single person whose tried to help you.

Take the "hint".

 

[Rakie]

Literally every single comment is about your lack of nutrients, and absurdly low Alkalinity. So I'm just going to double down again here; Take the Hint

Water parameters including phosphates.

0 phosphates and 0 nitrates maybe the reason for loss of color

Their is the problem. You are slowly starving your coral. I would personally bring the nitrates up. Most guys would keep them around 5. Phosphates are also a key “color keeper” and most guys recommend .02ppm

Do you feed The corals at all?

-Zack

Yep .1 phosphates and 5 ppm for nitrates

Lower light intensity till you get some nitrates.

Think it was missed that your Alk is very low if that is correct. What is it normally?

Lowering the light is more for keeping corals from bleaching further. Low nutrients = less light.

I recommend that you dose po4 and No3

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

Trying to replicate NSW levels is a fools errand, because we can't even begin to fathom the complex chemical reactions that happen in our oceans. In one liter of salt water there's an average of over 100 billion virus, and we know what a COUPLE of them do... A couple, out of hundreds of billions. We cannot replicate this. Additionally, corals in the wild have an infinite amount of phytoplankton -- And I've heard no mention of you running a phytoplankton reactor.

I'm gonna be honest here -- Not one of those corals you showed were impressive. Some pics are pale colors. Some pics show beige bodies. And all of them are green except the digi in the background. Unless you purposefully picked nothing but green corals, SPS turn green when water chemistry is messed up (or say, when Iron is high). Do a search for "SPS Turning Green" -- It's not a good thing, it's a warning that things are off.

I’m not so much trying to replicate NSW as I am liking a salt that happens to mimic NSW.

Regarding the green corals, I only have 3 species of green sps- blue tip green slimmer, green monti (can’t remember name), and a green birds nest. Everything green in the tank is supposed to be green (although the green slimmer has had a bit of a beige base likely to low nutrients).
Sps that aren’t green include: rainbow monti, yellow(ish) birdsnest I got as a rescue, pink monti, forest fire digi, and a purple stylophora.
Here are some pics of the all the colonies from before they lost pigment.

(And a pic when I first got the digi & stylo)

No worries, I’m not mad at you. I’m definitely thankful for you sharing your knowledge. I don’t believe I was ignoring others’ advice but I have been critical of what people say/ recommend.

I’ll prioritize getting a doser after I see the effects of my other tank changes.

 

[Smite]

Lots of sound advice here, Rakie broke it down for ya. 5-6 Dkh leaves no room for error, add to that extremely low nutrients and you're running a very fine line. That tank will be affected by the smallest of fluctuations and at a relatively small volume of water (for sps) where changes can happen quick I feel your making things much harder than they need to be.

It's clear you are hesitant to start dosing no3 and po4. I was as well on my last system and attempted what I felt was a more natural route by reducing skimming and refugium photoperiod. I got nutrients and color in my sticks but had constant algae issues in the display which lead me right back to undetectable nutrients. There are plenty of threads here with detailed instructions on ratios for mixing the supplements and amounts to dose per system volume. You have no control over the ratio of no3/po4 when you take your skimmer offline. With dosing you can get it down to the ml per day of each adding even more stability to your tank while continuing to export nutrients with your skimmer.

Also I would not make any nutrient changes until you slowly raise that dkh to 7-8. Your zero nutrients may be the only reason they are surving at such a low dkh. I wouldn't even change your skimming as that can cause a change in pH which at 7.7 you don't want to drop at all. Once you get that alkalinity up and start raising nutrients if you decide to be sure to monitor alk calcium and magnesium frequently. Your growth will increase changing your uptake of those three.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

It's clear you are hesitant to start dosing no3 and po4. I was as well on my last system and attempted what I felt was a more natural route by reducing skimming and refugium photoperiod. I got nutrients and color in my sticks but had constant algae issues in the display which lead me right back to undetectable nutrients. There are plenty of threads here with detailed instructions on ratios for mixing the supplements and amounts to dose per system volume. You have no control over the ratio of no3/po4 when you take your skimmer offline. With dosing you can get it down to the ml per day of each adding even more stability to your tank while continuing to export nutrients with your skimmer.

Also I would not make any nutrient changes until you slowly raise that dkh to 7-8. Your zero nutrients may be the only reason they are surving at such a low dkh. I wouldn't even change your skimming as that can cause a change in pH which at 7.7 you don't want to drop at all. Once you get that alkalinity up and start raising nutrients if you decide to be sure to monitor alk calcium and magnesium frequently. Your growth will increase changing your uptake of those three.

You’re right on that I am hesitant about dosing NO3& PO4.[emoji28] It certainly does sound a lot more appealing when you put it this way. I’ll see if I can’t get a rise from my nutrients with increased feeding first.. If so, I’ll know where to get more info.

Skimmer is getting turned back on.

 

[Rakie]

Excellent, those pictures are a much better representation than the one's you posted before. To be fair, that happens a lot in this hobby -- camera work in general isn't the easiest thing to pickup.

You seemed pretty straight forward so it was easier to be frank with you -- Honestly in this hobby, there's so many little threads of information tied to one another it's just easier to be 100% blunt.

As for me, and nutrients -- I'm pro-nutrients. I run high nutrients and have zero issues with anything. Great color and growth, no algae. no3 40, po4 0.80 (not a typo, 0.80). I run almost 100% SPS -- Nutrients within themselves don't do anything. It's an imbalance in your tank that allows things like algae to take advantage of said nutrients. Nutrients don't just magic up some algae from nothing, it's always more complicated than that.

Anywho -- Once you get a doser setup you'll be much better off. When I first started I was dosing Kalk, and while it was just fine, it was night and day switching to a doser with quality 2 part (3 part)

 

[Second Shot]

As a side note I seem to remember coralife salt being a high Alk salt. Might want to test it because that could be causing swings when you do water changes.

A quick search and it looks like it may be around 10dkh.

 

[markalot]

I’m greatly appreciative that you are taking the time to assist me with this, even if I sound defensive or otherwise.

I’m just still confused on a few things..
Alk, lighting, and nutrients have all been fairly consistent since the tank was set up (going on 2 years). That being said, why after the first whitening event did all the colonies end up regaining pigment? Along with that, I’ve also had some stellar growth.

My current course of action includes: discontinuing the use of ‘coral vitalizer’, turning off the skimmer, adding live bottled zooxanthelae, and increasing w/c frequency.

Down the road I may look into grabbing a 2 part doser as @markalot suggested.

I never hit post last night so this is behind a few posts but ....

The why is unknowable if you haven't been tracking. If Alk drops too low growth will stop, when you do a water change (do you do regular changes?) params come back up and growth may pick back up until Alk drops too low again. Something like that. More luck than anything else. How long have you had the slimer?

This is one year of slimer growth. After I crashed my tank I had this (1 year ago)

Big, thick, hairy , healthy. I currently dose 150ml of each part 2-part daily to keep this tank alive. Since this picture was taken a month ago the slimer has hit the water line. It's trying to make me go bankrupt buying two part.

 

[sfin52]

Run a lps and softy tank and my No3 is 40ish and last checked po4 0.3 growth is amazing. Was running 0 po4 and very low nitrates with heavy use of gfo and nitrates remover pads. I ended up with Dino because of o po4. I lost 2 Duncan’s with 15 heads apiece lost 4acans and 3 favia. No growth on any coral. Since dosing po4 gsp have doubled in the last month my lps coral has increased and my mushrooms have increased.

It’s hard to dose something that you’ve been told is not good for your tank. I was always told phosphates are the devil along with nitrates. They are the building blocks of life. Once you start dosing you will see what the rest of us have seen and learned. You’ll be part of the nutrients are good club and you won’t go back.

 

[landlubber]

It’s hard to dose something that you’ve been told is not good for your tank. I was always told phosphates are the devil along with nitrates. .

when i started this was the most confusing thing to sort out. nutrients are the devil to noob reefers because at that point it's about not growing algae instead of growing coral. add all the mass misinformation from the most active posters (which usually also happen to be noobs) that "undetectable" nutrients are the goal and you have the recipe for a failed system.

 

[Best Fish-Jake]

As a side note I seem to remember coralife salt being a high Alk salt. Might want to test it because that could be causing swings when you do water changes.

A quick search and it looks like it may be around 10dkh.

Nope, generally 6-7