Starfish dying?

teethdoctor23 · Aug 29, 2022

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
I only know of one instance of stars being medicated, and that was at Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium for Sea Star Wasting Disease. It was successful, but I don’t know what antibiotic(s) they used. (I discuss this in my quote below.)

OP, I’ll let the others handle the parameters - the only thing I have to add to that conversation is that I’ve heard some inverts are particularly negatively affected by high magnesium levels (though I don’t think your level would be high enough to cause serious issues). With that out of the way, if you think it may be bacterial, I have some tips that may help with bacterial infections in my quote below (low temp, low nutrients, high oxygenation), and you could try some experimental antibiotic treatments (like the iodine dip discussed in the quote below - I have no idea how long a dip like that would take of you try it, I’d recommend reading up on relatively similar treatments before attempting it) and let us know how they go, but there is, admittedly, a nonzero chance they’ll kill your star before whatever this is does. (Speaking bluntly here, however, from what I’ve heard, there’s likely a decent chance your star will die either way, so, personally, if others think some sort of experimental antibiotIc treatment might be worth an attempt, I’d give it a shot - I’m not an expert though.)

This is excellent information. I’ll be dipping the starfish tomorrow, I’ll make sure to keep everybody updated on this.

TopClamSkoo · Aug 30, 2022

I know it's kinda off topic.. but dalmatian spotted linkias do very well in tanks.

Had several years ago.. they lasted over 3 years until I broke the tank down. Not sure what happened to them afterwords tho..

ISpeakForTheSeas · Sep 2, 2022

teethdoctor23 said:
This is excellent information. I’ll be dipping the starfish tomorrow, I’ll make sure to keep everybody updated on this.

I'm curious, any updates so far?

Timfish · Sep 2, 2022

Your sea star may have a problem but keep in mind they will extend their stomach out of their body to feed and as they have only one opening to their body cavity that's how they poop also. To me the draker area around the mouth looks similar to pictures of starfish with thier stomach extended. The whitish and grayish-browish stuff off to the side between the legs could be insides bit could also be the results of it's previous meals. If there's no whitish lesions anywhere on it's body I would take a wait and see approach as trying to fix a problem when all we're seeing is normal behavior (how many of us know what a starfish pooping looks like?) may only add stress to the animal and increase the odds of it declining.

teethdoctor23 · Sep 2, 2022

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
I'm curious, any updates so far?

Timfish said:
Your sea star may have a problem but keep in mind they will extend their stomach out of their body to feed and as they have only one opening to their body cavity that's how they poop also. To me the draker area around the mouth looks similar to pictures of starfish with thier stomach extended. The whitish and grayish-browish stuff off to the side between the legs could be insides bit could also be the results of it's previous meals. If there's no whitish lesions anywhere on it's body I would take a wait and see approach as trying to fix a problem when all we're seeing is normal behavior (how many of us know what a starfish pooping looks like?) may only add stress to the animal and increase the odds of it declining.

So I haven’t dipped it yet, as it’s started to look better (iodine dip delivery was delayed; less brown stringyness hanging from mouth) however it hasn’t moved much, especially compared to how much it was moving around the tank prior to exhibiting this behavior. The starfish’s color is still very nice with no other signs of stress, so I’m still just in “wait and see” mode.

AydenLincoln · Sep 4, 2022

NO!!! Don’t dip it!! I repeat DON’T DIP IT!!! A star being exposed to air for short periods of time is not an issue and often will stick one arm outside the water. They can’t tolerate any medications/dips as they pump saltwater through their bodies or whatever substance you put them in. This star is similar to my star but is a lot harder to keep in captivity mainly due to their specific diet with a lot just eating sponges in the wild. If I had to guess it’s some sort of infection and what you’re seeing is decaying flesh and their guts/intestines it’s absolutely not their stomach. Starfish’s stomaches are a clear looking jelly substance. There’s nothing you can do if the guy is still alive and anything you try to do will most likely make it worse. There’s only a few instances I can think of where marine veterinarians injected stars in captivity with medication as an experiment for sea star wasting syndrome keywords here being trained marine veterinarians anything else there isn’t a proven method and is likely to do more harm than good. And it’s best to keep salinity at 1.026 especially for stars as it’s closest/average ocean salinity while 1.024-1.026 may be okay a very slow drip acclimation is a must due to variations in water parameters between fish stores and our tanks and inability to tolerate them. I’m sorry I wish I had better news. And to add this is what a health stars stomach/underside looks like and I just saw this post or else I would’ve replied earlier…sorry!

AydenLincoln · Sep 4, 2022

Timfish said:
Your sea star may have a problem but keep in mind they will extend their stomach out of their body to feed and as they have only one opening to their body cavity that's how they poop also. To me the draker area around the mouth looks similar to pictures of starfish with thier stomach extended. The whitish and grayish-browish stuff off to the side between the legs could be insides bit could also be the results of it's previous meals. If there's no whitish lesions anywhere on it's body I would take a wait and see approach as trying to fix a problem when all we're seeing is normal behavior (how many of us know what a starfish pooping looks like?) may only add stress to the animal and increase the odds of it declining.

It’s not pooping most star’s anuses are on the top of them. They take in food from the bottom and expel waste from the top. Though brittle stars and paxillosida stars don’t have an anus. It’s weird I know lol echinoderms are weird and interesting little creatures.

Dav2996 · Sep 4, 2022

teethdoctor23 said:
I recently got an Australian biscuit starfish, per my wife’s request. I know they’re hard to keep but she insisted. It’s been moving all over the tank, eating algae on the glass and rocks. Today it looks like this, with brown stringyness hanging from its mouth. Is this his gonads and some type of asexual reproduction? Is he dying? Just need some opinions here.

acclimation was very slow, about 2 weeks ago, and made sure to never expose the starfish to air. Parameters all look good, nothing is standing out to me. Please help!

I do not have that star but I have brittle star fish and sand sifting starfish. They are easier to keep had great success with them. My first star brittle looked sick and looked like it was decaying but formed into more stars. I thought it was dead and almost tossed it.

AydenLincoln · Sep 4, 2022

Dav2996 said:
I do not have that star but I have brittle star fish and sand sifting starfish. They are easier to keep had great success with them. My first star brittle looked sick and looked like it was decaying but formed into more stars. I thought it was dead and almost tossed it.

I’d like to add here that they are very different species brittle stars are their own species and sand sifting stars are sea stars but in a different family. Brittle stars being a different class but are considered echinoderms and seem to do very well in captivity when compared to sea stars.

ISpeakForTheSeas · Sep 4, 2022

AydenLincoln said:
NO!!! Don’t dip it!! I repeat DON’T DIP IT!!! A star being exposed to air for short periods of time is not an issue and often will stick one arm outside the water. They can’t tolerate any medications/dips as they pump saltwater through their bodies or whatever substance you put them in. This star is similar to my star but is a lot harder to keep in captivity mainly due to their specific diet with a lot just eating sponges in the wild. If I had to guess it’s some sort of infection and what you’re seeing is decaying flesh and their guts/intestines it’s absolutely not their stomach. Starfish’s stomaches are a clear looking jelly substance. There’s nothing you can do if the guy is still alive and anything you try to do will most likely make it worse. There’s only a few instances I can think of where marine veterinarians injected stars in captivity with medication as an experiment for sea star wasting syndrome keywords here being trained marine veterinarians anything else there isn’t a proven method and is likely to do more harm than good. And it’s best to keep salinity at 1.026 especially for stars as it’s closest/average ocean salinity while 1.024-1.026 may be okay a very slow drip acclimation is a must due to variations in water parameters between fish stores and our tanks and inability to tolerate them. I’m sorry I wish I had better news. And to add this is what a health stars stomach/underside looks like and I just saw this post or else I would’ve replied earlier…sorry!

As I mentioned in my post about experimental treatments, I agree there’s a chance the dip of an infected star could do more harm than good. However, if I knew my star was dying from an infection, then I personally would feel terrible not trying anything to save it.

With the iodine dip (one potential experimental venue to explore), I figure that at worst it would kill the star faster (as the OP's star seems to be in recovery as of their last post, this different, theoretical star’s already dying a slow and painful death from infection, so this could be viewed as an at least semi-humane form of euthanasia if that happens) and at best it could totally cure the star and allow it to live a long, healthy, happy life. If it’s already dying, it’s a low risk/high reward option. Doing nothing is a high risk/low reward option. Plus, as was mentioned with the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, stars have been shown to not only tolerate but be cured with at least some medication, so it's really just a matter of finding out which ones (and even the experts and scientists are making educated guesses at best to find out which ones to use right now).

Also, the fact that stars pump liquid through their system is what makes an iodine dip a potentially viable treatment option for internal infections (since the pumping of the liquid is how the antibiotic - the iodine - would reach the infected areas to cleanse them).

AydenLincoln · Sep 4, 2022

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
As I mentioned in my post about experimental treatments, I agree there’s a chance the dip of an infected star could do more harm than good. However, if I knew my star was dying from an infection, then I personally would feel terrible not trying anything to save it.

With the iodine dip (one potential experimental venue to explore), I figure that at worst it would kill the star faster (as the OP's star seems to be in recovery as of their last post, this different, theoretical star’s already dying a slow and painful death from infection, so this could be viewed as an at least semi-humane form of euthanasia if that happens) and at best it could totally cure the star and allow it to live a long, healthy, happy life. If it’s already dying, it’s a low risk/high reward option. Doing nothing is a high risk/low reward option. Plus, as was mentioned with the Point Defiance Zoo and Aquarium, stars have been shown to not only tolerate but be cured with at least some medication, so it's really just a matter of finding out which ones (and even the experts and scientists are making educated guesses at best to find out which ones to use right now).

Also, the fact that stars pump liquid through their system is what makes an iodine dip a potentially viable treatment option for internal infections (since the pumping of the liquid is how the antibiotic - the iodine - would reach the infected areas to cleanse them).

Starfish are just one of those animals where very little is actually known to help…let alone cure something and humane euthanasia or letting nature take it’s course is often the best course of treatment as sad as it is. As for what OP can do…maintaining near perfect water quality and not making any drastic or sudden changes is often the best/safest course of action.

teethdoctor23 · Sep 4, 2022

AydenLincoln said:
Starfish are just one of those animals where very little is actually known to help…let alone cure something and humane euthanasia or letting nature take it’s course is often the best course of treatment as sad as it is. As for what OP can do…maintaining near perfect water quality and not making any drastic or sudden changes is often the best/safest course of action.

Truly appreciate all the posts! The starfish has been moving around the tank a bit more, and while it’s mouth is still that brown color, there is nothing hanging out of its mouth anymore. The starfish still has all of its color as well. I’ll make sure to keep everybody updated

Timfish · Sep 5, 2022

AydenLincoln said:
It’s not pooping most star’s anuses is on the top of them. They take in food from the bottom and expel waste from the top. Though brittle stars and paxillosida stars don’t have an anus. It’s weird I know lol echinoderms are weird and interesting little creatures.

Love this hobby, so much to learn!

What if it has a big meal? How about the exoskeltons of shrimp and bones of fish one ingests? Or unlike brittle stars is evrything digested external to it's body?

ISpeakForTheSeas · Sep 5, 2022

Timfish said:
Love this hobby, so much to learn! What if it has a big meal? How about the exoskeltons of shrimp and bones of fish one ingests? Or unlike brittle stars is evrything digested external to it's body?

With predatory stars, they'll basically spit out the non-digestible parts (like snail or bivalve shells) using their mouth when they're done eating the organism inside. If the organism is digested internally or externally typically depends on how easy it is for the star to swallow the organism (some bivalves, for example, are easier to digest externally for some stars, as the stars can pry the shell open, evert the stomach, and digest the bivalve - other stars can't pry the shell open, but they can swallow the bivalve whole, so they suffocate the bivalve in their stomach, then digest it once the muscles relax and open the way for the star's digestive system to reach the bivalve meat).

Edit: to add about their usual digestion - stars basically just digest what they can, leave what they can't, and excrete the waste through their skin and tube feet. The quote below is a simple explanation:
"Excretion in echinoderms is by simple diffusion of metabolic wastes (ammonia) across thin permeable regions of the body wall. A variety of gas exchange structures, including the tube feet, is found in various echinoderms."
Source: https://biosurvey.ou.edu/Invert_manual/Echinodermata.html

ISpeakForTheSeas · Sep 5, 2022

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
With predatory stars, they'll basically spit out the non-digestible parts (like snail or bivalve shells) using their mouth when they're done eating the organism inside. If the organism is digested internally or externally typically depends on how easy it is for the star to swallow the organism (some bivalves, for example, are easier to digest externally for some stars, as the stars can pry the shell open, evert the stomach, and digest the bivalve - other stars can't pry the shell open, but they can swallow the bivalve whole, so they suffocate the bivalve in their stomach, then digest it once the muscles relax and open the way for the star's digestive system to reach the bivalve meat).

Edit: to add about their usual digestion - stars basically just digest what they can, leave what they can't, and excrete the waste through their skin and tube feet. The quote below is a simple explanation:
"Excretion in echinoderms is by simple diffusion of metabolic wastes (ammonia) across thin permeable regions of the body wall. A variety of gas exchange structures, including the tube feet, is found in various echinoderms."
Source: https://biosurvey.ou.edu/Invert_manual/Echinodermata.html

Just to clarify, most stars (but not all) do have an anus on top in the center of the animal - and they do use it - but most waste from digestion is excreted (as mentioned in my post above) as gases, and most indigestible pieces are simply "spat out" once the star has finished consuming it's prey.

Stars from the taxonomic order Paxillosida (including Astropecten spp., such as sand sifting starfish), do not have an anus, and all excretion is done using the other methods mentioned.

teethdoctor23 · Sep 10, 2022

ISpeakForTheSeas said:
I'm curious, any updates so far?

Hey just an update! The starfish is still alive, hasn’t lost any color or anything so I’m hopefully it’s going to recover! Still watching it closely of course

AydenLincoln · Sep 18, 2022

How’s the starfish? Is he still alive? I’ve been thinking about him and you?

teethdoctor23 · Sep 18, 2022

AydenLincoln said:
How’s the starfish? Is he still alive? I’ve been thinking him and you?

Hey! Starfish is alive. I haven’t done anything at all, just watching him. Looks exactly the same on top, I haven’t seen his underside in quite a while as he’s been on the back glass moving around and on the sand. But he has great color!