Starki with pop eye

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Just occurred to me - the hiding is most likely a response to impaired vision- it can’t see clearly so it wants to hide from possible predators....
Jay

 

[Trever]

@Jay Hemdal I agree. Indeed in every way he acts like he's dealing with vision issues- how he negotiates with his good versus bad eye to get the TDO pellets I'm giving him, the positions he uses when he turns and rests, etc.

The only caveat is that he swam around like nothing was different the first day he had this. I have wondered if internal bleeding, increasing swelling and such made his vision worse over time, so now he is hiding, but didn't at first.

I also think he's been in some pain and discomfort, which may have been worse the second and third day.

He clearly is in better overall health now. Just a few days ago he seemed to have little energy, small appetite, etc., and thus I wound up here on the forum. Seemed like he was going down hill fast.

I think the new tank is actually less stressful for him too, even though it's new and he can't look around yet.

I am cautiously optimistic he will come around and is doing so. He's certainly not out of the woods yet though.

 

[piranhaman00]

Petsmart carries E.M. worked for me against double popeye after 10 consecutive days.

 

[Trever]

@piranhaman00 if I've understood what you're describing, that is clearly infection (both eyes).

My fish traumatized one of his eyes (only one, and there is blood), either flashing it on a rock or more likely, running into walls/etc. when he was in a small sump because I had to remove him from DT (going after other fish).

The big question now is whether his eye will get infected, is infected and I just don't see it, or to pre-emptively treat with antibiotics regardless. So far I'm just carefully observing and stuffing him with food (he's eating fairly well).

He may be getting some vision that he lost temporarily in the bad eye? I think I can see his bare cornea now, whereas before it was behind a huge bubble.

This afternoon, he actually swam several times to the far length of the tank and swam around. He did move up a bit in the water column for a bit, though he generally still prefers to stay right along the bottom. He's definitely getting out and about now though, even in the corner he's been in, he's far more restless, not just hovering at a 45 degree angle.

I have him in a 20 gallon long right next to my desk. It's actually a blast to see this fish swim in this tank! First I've seen. He loves the running room. I'm hoping he'll get his vision restored, he might actually learn to read, being so close to my monitor and desk here.

 

[Thaxxx]

I had a Rolland's damsel just this past two weeks with a Popeye worse than pic you posted. Just one eye. He's in a 200 gal. tank with many other fish. I knew I could never catch him, so I let nature take it course. His eye was just about clean out of his skull. A week after it appeared, it started healing. A week after that, completely healed. He only stopped eating for one day.
Good luck with yours.

 

[Trever]

@Thaxxx thanks for that- it's great to hear! Long story but I have a lot invested in this fish.

My guy here is definitely doing better at this time. He's still mostly hiding but he was actually gliding around and doing maneuvers- real cool fish swimming! Haven't seen that in a couple of days.

I've read they can actually replace eye cells, unlike humans.

 

[Trever]

The patient is still alive today.

Seems same as yesterday if slightly improved. there are some changes in the eye. Hard to pinpoint but I feel like it looks a bit better, more healed, less extended. I don't see cloudy eyes. There is a bubble or two near his eye/head, a fair amount of blood, but the pupil itself (like yesterday) is still exposed (first few days entire pupil seemed to be encased in a bubble). Eating well, moves around the tank considerably though without confidence and stays along the bottom. He obviously doesn't see well given the way he misses pellets etc.

He seems to enjoy racing down the back bottom of the tank.

Given the stories I read about pop eye, I'm betting he pulls through and gets his full sight back. Going to be two week scenario is my guess.

Fingers crossed.

 

[Trever]

@Jay Hemdal wondering if infection can have definitive signs that I'm missing, do you know? I believe the fish is showing no outward signs of infection, but thought I'd double check here. Probably you can't say one way or another, but worth another pass over this, appreciate your feedback, or anyone else who thinks they might know.

There are gas bubbles coming and going (as much as a few times a day?) around the base of his eye and typically extending out along the rise of the pop'd eye. You mentioned this sort of thing. I'm not talking about a lot of bubbles, but at least 3 that I've noted in the past 24 hours. One was small like a zit. This afternoon I see clear liquid half way circumventing his eyeball. I assume the bubbles are normal "blistering" or whatever equivalent it would be in fish injuries?

I do not see hazy eyes in terms of the pupil/eyeball itself. I've seen pictures of that on the web and he definitely does not have anything whitish like that "in" his eye, and never has. Normal colored eyeball.

The swollen rise that the eye sits on can appear to have a whitish hue all around the base/head, but it's mostly "skin" color and/or is not whitish and instead is clear liquid, in some areas with blood streaks.

So... what is concerning is that if I look at him with his body perpendicular to me (i.e. being in front of him), the mound and eye area in general looks hazy. But if you look at him from the side, looking straight into the one eye, the eyeball is clearly sharp and normal color.

He continues to swim about more than he was two days ago, but is still struggling to see and not at all his normal self in terms of bombing around everywhere or exploring. He stays very low in the tank- 5 inches off the bottom- and always in the back of the tank. That is nowhere near normal for him, but by the same token, he is nowhere near his drastically diminished behavior of Saturday/Sunday, and instead appears how one might expect a protective but healthy fish with an eye bulging out his skull to behave.


P.S. I imagine experienced aquarists rolling their eyes at the length and concern spilling out in this thread (pun intended), since apparently pop eye is not uncommon and in cases like this, typically does resolve on it's own. I suspect this fish will follow that pattern, he's a hearty devil. But for this owner... it's still a ghastly and frightening thing to see. If my wife came home with her eye sticking out of her head like this or I looked in the mirror and saw one of my own eyes like this, I'd feel like I was in a horror movie. But I guess for fish, no biggie.. happens all the time!

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Nobody can really say if the eye is infected or not, even with a close up picture. Cloudiness and redness are both signs of infection, but so is gas production...there are gas producing bacteria. On the other hand, mechanical trauma causes all three of these symptoms as well!

From my experience, these issues seem to resolve in about two weeks (or they don't) often with no relation to the treatments offered. I always suggest erythromycin, but I have no way of knowing if it works, or if it just takes that amount of time.

Jay

 

[Trever]

He is swimming around A LOT more now, and earlier today I thought the eye looked better (not sure now, maybe same).

He spends a fair amount of time rubbing the eye on the tank glass. He gets himself in position and just sort of wiggles with his eye on the glass. I've also noticed him suddenly curve his whole body to the side of the eye as if in great pain, and then race down the tank and then rub. He doesn't seem to know what to do with what I think are pain episodes, other than swim somewhere as fast as he can.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

He is swimming around A LOT more now, and earlier today I thought the eye looked better (not sure now, maybe same).

He spends a fair amount of time rubbing the eye on the tank glass. He gets himself in position and just sort of wiggles with his eye on the glass. I've also noticed him suddenly curve his whole body to the side of the eye as if in great pain, and then race down the tank and then rub. He doesn't seem to know what to do with what I think are pain episodes, other than swim somewhere as fast as he can.

I'm not sure what the rubbing is about. The jury is still out if fish feel pain like we do, or if it is something called nociception.

Jay

 

[Trever]

I may be misrepresenting the rubbing, sorry. I suspect (dunno) he's trying to attract his reflection, not rubbing his eye, will have to find time to observe. It's hard because he usually goes to the back corner to do this, so I can't tell if his eye is on the tank or he's just right next to the glass. It looks like he's "messaging" himself and he only does it on the one side (bad eye).

An experience or nociception, it appears either way, eye related phenom cause him to do the equivalent of jumping around after stubbing a toe. I'm using a lot of anthropomorphic metaphors, but make no assumptions myself.

My clown fish went carpet surfing, I put him back, and to look at him, you'd never know he was on the floor a second ago. Who knows the "minds" of fishes, or if that word even applies.

To me, the fish act like a friendly dog one minute, and like a mindless insect the next. It's been interesting, this keeping fish journey I began a year ago.

I assume the starki's significant swimming and venturing out today (just now he's cruising the tank right near the surface) signals considerable improvement, for now.

 

[Trever]

@Jay Hemdal you said you recommend Erythromycin.

What I bought last weekend was Kanaplex, which is apparently for gram negative, whereas Erythromycin is apparently for gram positive. Is such a difference the basis of your recommendation of Erythromycin?

Wife is doctoring humans right now, and Google isn't helping me much- though there are sources like these- , and I certainly don't recall my college biology well enough... I can zip across town to get gram positive fish medication- probably Erythromycin- from a different LFS, if that seems like a worthwhile idea, and some folks on this thread have recommended different antibiotic brands which presumably have a different antibiotic ingredient (eg. gram negative vs. positive). I suspect they are all leaning the direction you are for antibiotic recommendation in this case.

The Kanaplex claims it is for "Dropsy, Popeye, Fin/Tail Rot, Septicemia". However presumably the popeye Seachem is talking about in this case is for popeye caused by bacteria, versus pop eye from an injury with a subsequent wound infection. If that matters, which I would think it could.

Fish's eye pupil looks cloudy this AM only because a bubble has enveloped the entire eye and that bubble is cloudy (versus clear bubbles I have also seen), and he is mobile but not eating (after eating what seemed many days worth of food day before last, and he nibbled yesterday...). I'm still assessing, but leaning (for now) towards erroring on the side of prophylactic versus continued observation- which you have advised all along.

No problem medicating the hospital tank he is in, so perhaps I should get off the fence. One receives strong advice to not do anything for injury pop eye, though, and from folks who otherwise believe in antibiotics (versus garlic, teas, and other quackery).

 

[Trever]

Interesting I guess:

Erythromycin is most effective against gram-positive bacteria, such as Streptococcus species. The vast majority of bacteria that cause disease in fish are gram-negative, so erythromycin should only be used after culture and sensitivity test results confirm it will be effective. Also, erythromycin is not very effective in a bath treatment, and it should only be administered by injection or in feed.

The aminoglycosides, including gentamicin, neomycin, kanamycin, and amikacin, are very effective against gram-negative bacteria infections when administered by injection. Unfortunately, this group has also been shown to cause kidney damage in fish when administered by this technique. As a group, these antibiotics are not considered effective when used in oral or bath treatments. A couple of exceptions may be kanamycin and neomycin, both of which may be effective against external infections if used in bath treatments. In addition, kanamycin is also believed to be effective when mixed with feed to treat gastrointestinal bacterial infections (Gilmartin, Camp and Lewis 1976). None of the aminoglycosides are approved by the FDA for use with food fish.

 

[Trever]

I guess I'll go with the Seachem Kanaplex if I go with anything, endless fence sitter that I am...

 

[Trever]

Dosed Kanaplex to the tank, amount is per label instructions. Mixed up the powder in a glass vessel of tank water, then poured over the top length of the tank.

Today his eye/area around it is hazier than it's ever been. In terms of how far out it is, his eye is the same (not getting any better). He has become much more listless and still won't touch food.

He was quite a different fish yesterday and day before, where he seemed very much on the mend. Last weekend he seemed a bit worse than he is now. So since injuring his eye he's been up and down. No clear progress, just back and forth.

Perhaps the meds will help, do nothing, or make things worse. And will never know what caused what... But I am not taking him to a vet, and dosing seemed better than doing nothing at this 7 day mark.

 

[Trever]

RIP Sven.

I suspect the Kanaplex killed him, but impossible to say and if that hadn't, he was deteriorating otherwise.

Both LFS's wondered if he had flukes. I had some water ready and General API, to try that route. Too late.

LFS claimed pop eye due to injury is relatively rare.

One theory is that he had flukes, which would explain the twitching and flashing near his eyes, which may have lead to pop eye. Flukes plus the Kanaplex suffocated him.

I don't know if this is plausible and researching what it might mean for my DT, though so far, the fish there are as normal as ever- they've all been with me for half a year now.