Starting Dosing with Tropic Marin

[JamieC]

Hello, I recently returned to the hobby and feel like I'm to the point I will start dosing. My tank is 60 gallons and has been up and running for three months or so. I have lots of zoas that are doing well. I also have a couple trial pieces of stonies....a donated large frag of Hollywood stunner and three different montiporas. The hard corals have been in the tank for two weeks with great color and polyp extension.

Testing results over the last week have shown calcium holding at 450 on the salifert test kit, but alk has fallen from 8.3 to 7.7. I know it will be hard to see such a small relative change in Ca from a hobby grade test kit. Here is my question...I want this to supplement with Tropic Marin CarboCalcium, which supplements both Ca and Alk. I plan to dose modestly at first. Should I dose CarboCalcium simply to hold my alk at 8 ish, and not worry about the calcium building up? I know it shouldn't, because they are tied to one another, but it's hard to dose both knowing I can only see a change in one. I of course will be testing daily as well as I dial it in. I don't know why I'm so uneasy about this...lol

 

[steve bergmann]

I have been dosing with Tropic Marin and using the Triton Method. Here is a video of my tank:
You need to keep testing, I dose quite a bit more of the Alk, part B than I do of the Calc, part A.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hello, I recently returned to the hobby and feel like I'm to the point I will start dosing. My tank is 60 gallons and has been up and running for three months or so. I have lots of zoas that are doing well. I also have a couple trial pieces of stonies....a donated large frag of Hollywood stunner and three different montiporas. The hard corals have been in the tank for two weeks with great color and polyp extension.

Testing results over the last week have shown calcium holding at 450 on the salifert test kit, but alk has fallen from 8.3 to 7.7. I know it will be hard to see such a small relative change in Ca from a hobby grade test kit. Here is my question...I want this to supplement with Tropic Marin CarboCalcium, which supplements both Ca and Alk. I plan to dose modestly at first. Should I dose CarboCalcium simply to hold my alk at 8 ish, and not worry about the calcium building up? I know it shouldn't, because they are tied to one another, but it's hard to dose both knowing I can only see a change in one. I of course will be testing daily as well as I dial it in. I don't know why I'm so uneasy about this...lol

just test the calcium once in a while to make sure it is tracking ok.

 

[JamieC]

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to start at a half dose, keep up with water changes, and see how things progress. I'm pretty sure Lou from TM mentioned that CarboCalcium won't drive Alk up based on how the corals absorb it via the break down of the Ca Formate. We shall see. Right now my salt water mix is at 9dkh...I'd like to get my Alk closer to that range - 8.5 to 9 steady.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thanks for the responses. I'm going to start at a half dose, keep up with water changes, and see how things progress. I'm pretty sure Lou from TM mentioned that CarboCalcium won't drive Alk up based on how the corals absorb it via the break down of the Ca Formate. We shall see. Right now my salt water mix is at 9dkh...I'd like to get my Alk closer to that range - 8.5 to 9 steady.

no, that is Definitely not correct. Whatever you add ends up as useful alkalinity within whatever period of time it takes bacteria to consume the formate. It has nothing to do with corals needing it and you can overdose it and drive alk too high same as any alk supplement.

 

[JamieC]

Ahh...thank you very much for clearing that up Randy. That makes me feel better knowing I will be able to actively monitor it.

I guess that makes sense...I think I read a previous thread where Lou was saying it could take a couple of weeks to see anything...presuming that is the period required for the bacteria to break down the formate.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Ahh...thank you very much for clearing that up Randy. That makes me feel better knowing I will be able to actively monitor it.

I guess that makes sense...I think I read a previous thread where Lou was saying it could take a couple of weeks to see anything...presuming that is the period required for the bacteria to break down the formate.

I don’t know how long it takes initially, but like other types of carbon dosing, the bacteria that consume it will grow in number so that id be surprised if it takes more than a couple of hours routinely.

 

[Lou Ekus]

@JamieC @Randy Holmes-Farley
I just came across this thread, so I apologize for the delay in the information.

I it is absolutely true, that the alkalinity from our products Carbocalcium and All-For-Reef is somewhat different in its development than what we traditionally test in our reef tanks. Below is a release that we published, for users of these products in August of last year. I hope it helps to clear up this questions:

August 2019
For all users of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef (and all those who want to become users): Here is some scientific background from our Tropic Marin laboratory on the question: “why can´t I measure an increase in Ca and Alkalinity after dosing Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef in my aquarium?”
Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef are extremely effective for “maintaining” the levels of calcium and alkalinity in reef aquariums and somewhat less effective at “raising” those levels to desired concentrations. Consequently, it is recommended to start dosing these products once the desired levels of these parameters are reached. To adjust these parameters individually, we recommend using Tropic Marin Balling Part A for raising the calcium level and Tropic Marin Balling Part B for raising the alkalinity level when needed.
Carbo-Calcium powder is a pure, organic calcium salt (calcium formate Ca(HCOO)2). Calcium formate dissolves in water to form calcium ions (Ca2+) and formate anions (HCOO-). This happens gradually according to the needs in the aquarium. With the recommended daily starting dose of 5 ml of concentrated solution per 100 liters/26 US-gal. of aquarium water, 2.15 ppm of calcium and 4.8 ppm of formate are added to the aquarium water. This small but effective quantity does not result in measurable changes in pH, water hardness and calcium or alkalinity concentration in the aquarium water.
Formate is taken up by microorganisms in the aquarium and metabolized, eventually forming bicarbonates within the coral polyps, and then used to build the calcium carbonate coral skeleton as it grows.
After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals. Since the metabolic processes in the organisms take place in a controlled manner (supply and demand), the resulting changes in water parameters are so small they are often undetectable.
These products are highly effective at supplying the essential calcium and bicarbonate components that the coral need for growth, even at extremely low concentrations. These supplied compounds “bypass” a stage where they can be detected in the water column and are taken up by the coral polyps directly.
In summary, it can be said that the components for the growth of corals supplied by means of Carbo-Calcium (and All-For-Reef) are not detectable by conventional test kits. We are actively working on a testing method to measure these organic salt compounds in the aquarium at your home, but as of now none exists.

Although we all still have a lot to learn about exactly how calcium formate is metabolized and converted in the aquarium, I hope this information sheds some light on the measurement and adjustments of calcium and alkalinity while using Carbocalcium or All-For-Reef as the supplementation method.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Hi Lou,

While it may be the case that corals take up formate directly (they take up acetate as well), do you have data that suggests this is the primary route of formate degradation in a typical reef tank and that competition from bacteria and other organisms that convert it to bicarbonate first are a less important process?

How would one even establish that?
Test in a tank without corals and compare the rate of disappearance?

 

[Chris Spaulding]

I have been using the All-For-Reef now for about 10 months and I really like. I have a Redsea reefer 250 , 64 total gallons. As my corals have grown I have needed to increase the dousing on All-For-Reef. Currently I am Doseing 30 ml a day spread equally over a 24 hr period. I test ALK daily and Mag and Cal every 2 too 3 weeks and all are steady.

 

[joe berkman]

Following

 

[LARedstickreefer]

@JamieC @Randy Holmes-Farley
I just came across this thread, so I apologize for the delay in the information.

I it is absolutely true, that the alkalinity from our products Carbocalcium and All-For-Reef is somewhat different in its development than what we traditionally test in our reef tanks. Below is a release that we published, for users of these products in August of last year. I hope it helps to clear up this questions:

August 2019
For all users of Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef (and all those who want to become users): Here is some scientific background from our Tropic Marin laboratory on the question: “why can´t I measure an increase in Ca and Alkalinity after dosing Carbo-Calcium or All-For-Reef in my aquarium?”
Carbo-Calcium and All-For-Reef are extremely effective for “maintaining” the levels of calcium and alkalinity in reef aquariums and somewhat less effective at “raising” those levels to desired concentrations. Consequently, it is recommended to start dosing these products once the desired levels of these parameters are reached. To adjust these parameters individually, we recommend using Tropic Marin Balling Part A for raising the calcium level and Tropic Marin Balling Part B for raising the alkalinity level when needed.
Carbo-Calcium powder is a pure, organic calcium salt (calcium formate Ca(HCOO)2). Calcium formate dissolves in water to form calcium ions (Ca2+) and formate anions (HCOO-). This happens gradually according to the needs in the aquarium. With the recommended daily starting dose of 5 ml of concentrated solution per 100 liters/26 US-gal. of aquarium water, 2.15 ppm of calcium and 4.8 ppm of formate are added to the aquarium water. This small but effective quantity does not result in measurable changes in pH, water hardness and calcium or alkalinity concentration in the aquarium water.
Formate is taken up by microorganisms in the aquarium and metabolized, eventually forming bicarbonates within the coral polyps, and then used to build the calcium carbonate coral skeleton as it grows.
After dosing, the Carbo-Calcium is present in the water column in a form that cannot yet be measured (by common tests at home) and is only broken down in response to the metabolic demands of the corals. Since the metabolic processes in the organisms take place in a controlled manner (supply and demand), the resulting changes in water parameters are so small they are often undetectable.
These products are highly effective at supplying the essential calcium and bicarbonate components that the coral need for growth, even at extremely low concentrations. These supplied compounds “bypass” a stage where they can be detected in the water column and are taken up by the coral polyps directly.
In summary, it can be said that the components for the growth of corals supplied by means of Carbo-Calcium (and All-For-Reef) are not detectable by conventional test kits. We are actively working on a testing method to measure these organic salt compounds in the aquarium at your home, but as of now none exists.

Although we all still have a lot to learn about exactly how calcium formate is metabolized and converted in the aquarium, I hope this information sheds some light on the measurement and adjustments of calcium and alkalinity while using Carbocalcium or All-For-Reef as the supplementation method.

So how do we know when to increase/decrease the dose in order to maintain a setpoint?

I can absolutely see a rise/fall in alkalinity from day to day.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I have asked @Hans-Werner Balling, from our lab in Germany, to follow along and add his comments to this thread. As you all know, I am not a chemist, and don't pretend to be one. So when questions get to a certain level, I need to get the real authorities involved. Hans-Werner is out of the office today and tomorrow. So I am hoping he will chime in on Monday with some clarification on these questions.

 

[JamieC]

We'll, I've been using the CarboCalcium mixed with Trace A and K and can definitely influence Alk with how much I dose. I have it dialed in now and I'm maintaining alk at 8.9 to 9.0. So...in recap, I was able to raise it from 7.7 to 9.0, adjust dose, and sustain 9 with carbocalcium. I have my CarbCalcium dose at night...2am and 5am. And the dosing time to effect on alk was apparent by that same evening.

FWIW, the coral is super happy. I'm definitely satisfied with the product. It's awesome to be able to dose Ca, Alk, and Trace elements with a single dosing pump. I can now use my other pumps for KNO3, Mg, and haven't decided on the last one...maybe Acropower in the future.

 

[Lou Ekus]

So how do we know when to increase/decrease the dose in order to maintain a setpoint?

I can absolutely see a rise/fall in alkalinity from day to day.

The basic principle, of how to know when and how to increase dosage, is the same as with conventional products. If you levels are decreasing, you should make a small increase in the dosage to compensate.
The only difference is that sometimes, you need to use some other product to bring the alkalinity level back up, and use the Carbocalcium (or All-For-Reef) to then maintain those levels. Also, in many systems, there is a time lag between the dose of the Carbocalcium, and the rise in alkalinity from that particular dose. So if you see some inconsistency, it is helpful to know that and take it into consideration when figuring your dosage increase.

 

[Chris Spaulding]

I sent an email awhile back to TM and asked how much All-for-Reef is needed to raise Alk up buy .5 in 50 gallons.
The answer I got is it takes 8.6ml to raise the Alk buy .5 in 25 gallons.

I used this as my baseline along with Alk testing everyday at the same time to get things steady.
Right now I have a daly Alk Drop of about 1.75 DKH. 30.2 ml a day is keeping my tank steady. This is in a RedSea Reefer 250 (64 Total Gallons )

I also Use TM Pro Salt

 

[JamieC]

Right...I think the point Lou was making is that because of the requirement for Calcium Formate to break down, you can't just dose it and test for the rise in alk 5 minutes later...like you could with traditional 2 part products. You need to allow time for the Formate to switch to the 2 compounds he listed above. @Chris Spaulding I used the same formula and it works like a charm.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Right...I think the point Lou was making is that because of the requirement for Calcium Formate to break down, you can't just dose it and test for the rise in alk 5 minutes later...like you could with traditional 2 part products. You need to allow time for the Formate to switch to the 2 compounds he listed above. @Chris Spaulding I used the same formula and it works like a charm.

This is how I had originally assumed it worked.

 

[chefjpaul]

I sent an email awhile back to TM and asked how much All-for-Reef is needed to raise Alk up buy .5 in 50 gallons.
The answer I got is it takes 8.6ml to raise the Alk buy .5 in 25 gallons.

I used this as my baseline along with Alk testing everyday at the same time to get things steady.
Right now I have a daly Alk Drop of about 1.75 DKH. 30.2 ml a day is keeping my tank steady. This is in a RedSea Reefer 250 (64 Total Gallons )

I also Use TM Pro Salt

Exactly what I use.

I test consistency at a set time because of.

Once I had my doser schedule dialed in, just make sure I'm testing prior to the next dosing time scheduled.

Seems to work fine.

I actually found dosing less times per day gave me more options and time in between to get a steady result.

 

[JamieC]

Yep. I only dose 2 times a day right now...may expand to 3. I don't think it is as important to break up dosage evenly throughout the day like we would do for 2 part. Each dosing of traditional 2 part has an immediate effect and as such makes sense to space it out for stability. CarboCalcium takes time to break down. I'm guessing I could probably dose it all at once without negative effects, but I break it up a little just because it seems like a good idea to me...lol