Starting With 0 Nutrients then Dosing

[TheSheff]

Hello, I was just reading through a thread about nutrients and read that someone uses a fuge and skimmer to almost constantly keep their nutrients at 0, then they dose what nutrients are needed with plus NP. Has anyone done this with any success? It seems like it would be nice to be able to control nutrient numbers pretty precisely so that they are always where we want them to be.

 

[Reefer Matt Verified Media Partner]

Hello, I was just reading through a thread about nutrients and read that someone uses a fuge and skimmer to almost constantly keep their nutrients at 0, then they dose what nutrients are needed with plus NP. Has anyone done this with any success? It seems like it would be nice to be able to control nutrient numbers pretty precisely so that they are always where we want them to be.

That is interesting. I am curious as to why precise nutrient numbers are important over a range. Maybe for algae control?

 

[Tavero]

That is interesting. I am curious as to why precise nutrient numbers are important over a range. Maybe for algae control?

I dont have a skimmer and need to dose nutrients or else i would drop to 0 + 0. I recently increased phosphate from 0.05 to 0.4 and nitrate from 5 to 30 because my zoas are melting constantly. I have not seen any significant more algae growth and still have to add large amounts of nori for my herbivirores.

 

[TheSheff]

That is interesting. I am curious as to why precise nutrient numbers are important over a range. Maybe for algae control?

I think it could be beneficial in newer tanks that have more fluctuating nutrient numbers. Having overpowered nutrient control and then dosing nutrients could be an easier solution compared to having to worry about testing all the time. I'm thinking it could be put on a doser, i'm just curious whether or not it would need to be dosed over time, or if it could be dosed once a day.

 

[Salty_Northerner]

I've started dosing Neophos just because my phosphorus / phosphate has bottomed out to zero. And this is a transfer of Rock and all of my animals to their larger system. FWIW my zoas are happy at a phosphate level of 0.020-0.030 and hopefully adding a couple more fish to the mix I won't need to be dosing anymore.

 

[Reefer Matt Verified Media Partner]

I think it could be beneficial in newer tanks that have more fluctuating nutrient numbers. Having overpowered nutrient control and then dosing nutrients could be an easier solution compared to having to worry about testing all the time. I'm thinking it could be put on a doser, i'm just curious whether or not it would need to be dosed over time, or if it could be dosed once a day.

It's a neat concept for sure! Following on this. Thanks!

 

[jda]

I do not know what thread that you read, but if their point is that no3 and po4 are not the only way that nitrogen and phosphorous get to coral, then they are right. Most corals cannot use no3 anyway, so adding it does not help most of them - the ones that can use no3 have to convert it back to a usable form of nitrogen at a high cost.

Feeding the fish more, or dosing more available forms of nitrogen (ammonia) are better ideas. Many successful tanks are heavy import (feeding) and heavy export with low residual no3 and po4 numbers.

 

[TheSheff]

I do not know what thread that you read, but if their point is that no3 and po4 are not the only way that nitrogen and phosphorous get to coral, then they are right. Most corals cannot use no3 anyway, so adding it does not help most of them - the ones that can use no3 have to convert it back to a usable form of nitrogen at a high cost.

Feeding the fish more, or dosing more available forms of nitrogen (ammonia) are better ideas. Many successful tanks are heavy import (feeding) and heavy export with low residual no3 and po4 numbers.

My thoughts is that it's just easier to estimate the addition of nutrients via an additive like plus-np compared to just feeding as it is not as accurate.

 

[jda]

Probably better to have an unknown amount of usable things being added rather than a known amount of things that corals cannot easily use, if they can at all.

 

[Pod_01]

Probably better to have an unknown amount of usable things being added rather than a known amount of things that corals cannot easily use, if they can at all.

I think the idea has some merit. TM plus NP does not provide NO3 or PO4, actual test kits cannot measure addition of PlusNP. It provides N and P (only TM knows what form, perhaps Amino and not sure on P). The idea is that this carbon source feeds the bacteria, bacteria consumes the P and N and in turn corals consume the bacteria. So corals can have the required building blocks.
But one still needs to feed the corals. Plus NP does not work alone and even TM stated and recommends coral feeding. Coral feeding as in fish poop, coral food etc…
Anyways that is my understanding of TM PlusNP and that is how I used it. It is not stand alone wonder potion.

 

[jda]

The bacteria that multiply with OC are not a known coral food. There are a lot of assumptions here. Why not just use things that are known to get nitrogen and phosphorous to corals directly instead of the aunt's, mothers, dog groomer, cousins, babysitter?

None of the fish waste needs any help to get to the corals.

 

[Tavero]

@jda @Pod_01
You know you can just dose ammonium? No one forces you to add nitrate or a products with who knows whats inside.

 

[Pod_01]

The bacteria that multiply with OC are not a known coral food. There are a lot of assumptions here. Why not just use things that are known to get nitrogen and phosphorous to corals directly instead of the aunt's, mothers, dog groomer, cousins, babysitter?

None of the fish waste needs any help to get to the corals.

But what if you got no fish??? Or not enough fish? Or wrong fish that eats your corals?
Not all of us have perfect reef setup from the start and there is too much confusion on this site.

TM approach does work and is helpful to new reefers. It helped me tremendously . I tried to decode all the confusion on this site like dose NO3 or PO4 or ammonia or Amino or as you said your aunt recipes etc… My results were dead corals and I almost gave up.
Not all of us are biologists or chemist and there is lot to learn to grow SPS.

Some pictures to relax:

 

[Pod_01]

@jda @Pod_01
You know you can just dose ammonium? No one forces you to add nitrate or a products with who knows whats inside.

You could, but in this I agree with @jda . Fish poop and fish ammonia is the best. Snails help as well, they are ammonia factories.

The problem is you need fish, you need to feed them high quality food (no fillers, flour etc…) and that is getting into the weeds and takes time to understand. Maybe I am just slow.
Regardless I believe you still need robust biofilm for corals to flourish and carbon dosing can help with this. Hence the TM method, again there might be better ways to achieve robust biofilm but I am not biologist. Also I prefer not to kill corals any more in the name of experimenting so I like to follow methods that have some track record.
This site has lot of contradictions.

Happy reefing…

 

[Tavero]

You could, but in this I agree with @jda . Fish poop and fish ammonia is the best. Snails help as well, they are ammonia factories.

The problem is you need fish, you need to feed them high quality food (no fillers, flour etc…) and that is getting into the weeds and takes time to understand. Maybe I am just slow.
Regardless I believe you still need robust biofilm for corals to flourish and carbon dosing can help with this. Hence the TM method, again there might be better ways to achieve robust biofilm but I am not biologist. Also I prefer not to kill corals any more in the name of experimenting so I like to follow methods that have some track record.
This site has lot of contradictions.

Happy reefing…

Chemically there is no difference between ammonium chloride and fish ammonia. So saying fish ammonia is the best is like saying "i dont eat meat i only eat beef".

Additionally, as long as you don't know what's inside a product, you have no idea if it works for you, or why. It may, or it may not. Considering the huge amount of parameters that need be right for corals to grow, this is a huge gamble.
*cough* vibrant *cough*

And no: feeding lots of food doesn't necessarily lead to high nutrients. Though it does lead to potentially obese fish and detrius build up.

 

[Pod_01]

Chemically there is no difference between ammonium chloride and fish ammonia. So saying fish ammonia is the best is like saying "i dont eat meat i only eat beef".

Additionally, as long as you don't know what's inside a product, you have no idea if it works for you, or why. It may, or it may not. Considering the huge amount of parameters that need be right for corals to grow, this is a huge gamble.
*cough* vibrant *cough*

And no: feeding lots of food doesn't necessarily lead to high nutrients. It does lead to potentially obese fish and detrius build up though.

I should clarify best for me meaning fish created vs. me playing mad chemist. I have been known to mix things incorrectly in the past. But if one knows what to mix feel free.

I prefer to use proven company products and TM falls into that category, another company I trust is Fauna Marin and only use their fish food and coral food. With their products the fish look healthy and not fat, no bread in FM products.

I never used Vibrant, it did sound like a wonder potion From unknown entity. I let others experiment.

I fully agree with your last statement. I feed my fish high quality FM foods and corals get high quality food as well. My nutrients are as follow:

Please don’t ask me to add NO3!!!!
I do not use GFO or fuge or socks, just skimmer and activated carbon.
Healthy growing corals filter the water just fine.

Hungry buggers….

 

[Tavero]

I prefer to use proven company products and TM falls into that category, another company I trust is Fauna Marin and only use their fish food and coral food. With their products the fish look healthy and not fat, no bread in FM products.

Proven by whom? Their marketing and advertisement section? While your ability to use the camera to shoot pictures of your tank may be impressive, it tells nothing about the quality of TM products.
I mean if it works for you fine, but you really should check the ingredients a company uses before you praise this company for its used ingredients. Else you may sound like a fool.

Just a short search tells me TM uses fish meal (usually butcher waste products) and wheat (bread?) in O-Megavital.
Sooooo no difference to other companies.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

There is a BRS video with a talk with Lou E. that came out last week. It was a 45min video on TM's view on carbon dosing. It is very informative, whether or not you use their product.
My personal experience is I can not keep phosphates in my tanks and I used Plus NP as directed and I have been testing exactly where I want to be now.
Plus NP, Minus NP and Bacto Balance are all forms of carbon dosing. Reef Actif is also a type of carbon dosing but mild using long strand polymers derived from seaweed.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I personally do not see any big need for a comnercial N and P product. DIY dosing is easy, cheap, known purity, and easier to set target levels.

Trying to constantly keep nutrients low but not too low requires a lot more effort (and possibly expense) than does keeping them in a more typical range, such as 2-10 ppm nitrate and 0.02 to 0.1 ppm phosphate, which works perfectly well in most reef tanks.

 

[TheSheff]

@jda @Pod_01
You know you can just dose ammonium? No one forces you to add nitrate or a products with who knows whats

do you have any experience with dosing ammonium?