Status check

[DLHDesign]

This is my first QT process, so I've no gauge of what's "normal" and what's not. So I'm being a big boy and asking for advice from those that know better than me.

Bought this angel and blenny from the LFS on Tuesday. I mixed up a new batch of saltwater, got it's temp close to the store's water, and then drip-acclimated them for several hours before adding them into the new QT tank (which has a small heater, ammonia monitor, air stone, and some PVC). A few hours later, I dropped in some frozen food to see if they would eat. They didn't. Tried to get as much of the food out as I could, but there was a noticeable amount left in.

Today, the blenny seemed fine, but the angel was looking lethargic. Also seemed to be breathing pretty hard. Took some measurements of the tank and the only thing I wasn't used to was nitrates were up around 20 (my DT runs about 10-5) and pH was around 11.2 (my DT is still getting stable, but hovers around 8).
I ended up pulling 5gal out of my DT and putting that into the second (also brand new) QT (along with a second set of everything). When I returned to the first QT tank (which had pretty cloudy looking water at this point), the angel was almost totally on it's side. The blenny was still doing fine (that thing is a tank, I figure).
I pulled out both and moved them into the new QT. Within minutes, the angle seemed to improve a little. It's still not doing laps around the tank, however... Not that I expect that, but it would be nice to see some swimming up in the water column.

Wanted to check in and see what people more in the know than me thought. This is pretty much all it's been doing since it's come out of the bag...

 

[Humblefish]

How in the world can your pH be 11.2?! That's gotta be a mistake. Can you check it again?

[HASHTAG]#reefsquad[/HASHTAG] for backup

 

[twilliard]

That sounds way off
Can it even get that high even with massive buffer added?

 

[hybridazn]

I'm guessing that ph test was way off.

 

[redfishbluefish]

pH could never get close to 11 unless very strong base was added. Normal chemical makeup of the water wouldn't allow it.

Are you running an HOB filter? If not, add on, or at a minimum a bubbler. My guess is that your oxygen levels are low or ammonia is present.

 

[Diesel]

With a PH in that range your Angel would be a angel by now together with your tank Blenny.
User error I suspect.
What do you use to measure your PH?
And what sits your ALK at?

 

[DLHDesign]

Thanks for the replies all.

I'm a moron. The tank was at 11.2 dKH - not 11.2 pH. Duh. pH was around 8 based on my ATI test in the old water.
So yes; definitely user error...

@redfishbluefish - No HOB. I've got one that I was planning on using after all the tank swaps were done, but for the short-term tanks I've just got a bubbler in there (I've only got one and it wouldn't have time to dry). The air pump (Whisper 10) is turned up as much as I can get it without it making a huge mess (about 75%?). I've only got 5gal of water in the tank (for the 10gal air pump), so hopefully that's enough.

No (or too low to show up on tests) ammonia. I've got the Ammonia Alert in there and also ran an API test and got nothing.

 

[Humblefish]

One thing I would do (in the future) is set your QT temp & SG to perfectly match the LFS water. That would allow you to float & release, without doing any prolonged drip acclimation. This explains in more detail: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-acclimate.192300/

The other question I have is: How are you controlling ammonia in QT? A bubbler is fine for gas exchange (although a small powerhead pointed towards the surface would be better); but you really need a filter on your QT which contains bio-media capable of housing nitrifying bacteria which breaks down ammonia. I personally use an Aquaclear HOB for this purpose, as those come with a very porous sponge ideal for bacteria to colonize. More info here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-quarantine.189815/

 

[DLHDesign]

One thing I would do (in the future) is set your QT temp & SG to perfectly match the LFS water.

I did that, yup. LFS SG was 1.025 (measured from the bag via refractometer) and I matched my QT water to that. By the time I got home from the LFS (which is about an hour away), the temps were pretty close (+/-1F), so I floated the bags for about an hour (a little long, but I got pulled away by work for a few minutes) and then transferred the fish "dry" (gently poured the bag into the sink, catching the fish in a strainer and putting it in the tank from there).

How are you controlling ammonia in QT?

I've got Prime on-hand if needed.
I also have an Aquaclear HOB filter and am soaking three of the sponge filters (all my spares) in the DT to seed them. They've only been in there for a week, however, so I'm not sure that they are ready for use?
I only have one HOB filter. So I could run it every other QT tank during the TTM process if that's got any value? My plan was to use it in the final QT tank where the fish will sit for a few weeks.

 

[Humblefish]

I also have an Aquaclear HOB filter and am soaking three of the sponge filters (all my spares) in the DT to seed them. They've only been in there for a week, however, so I'm not sure that they are ready for use?

IME; it takes at least 1 month to fully seed them.

I only have one HOB filter. So I could run it every other QT tank during the TTM process if that's got any value? My plan was to use it in the final QT tank where the fish will sit for a few weeks.

I would use it after TTM has complete, on the final QT when you are just observing prior to putting the fish in your DT. Whilst performing TTM is when you want to use Prime to control ammonia.

 

[DLHDesign]

Thanks @Humblefish - I've gone through most of your threads on the QT process (and TTM in particular) several times in order to try to "set" all the info into my brain. Thank you very much for putting all that out there - really helps newbs like me!

The only thing remaining is that (as I have no experience at this) I have no gauge of what is within the boundaries of "normal" for this process. As an example; I had seen our two clowns twitch form time to time and thought this might be a case of them being near death, but I was informed that it's more likely a mating dance (they are both doing fine several weeks on, so I'm comfortable with that being true).
Along those lines, I'm unsure whether a lethargic fish at the start of QT is "normal" or not. The Regal in the video doesn't act like a fish in the wild would act (not based on my observations from decades of SCUBA, at least), but that is to be expected. So my question, I guess, is whether it's normal for a new fish to appear lethargic? Is it normal for a fish like an angel to just sit there in one spot, with it's mouth upwards, sucking in water, for pretty much the entire day? (I'm trying to determine if there is, in fact, a problem to solve before I try to solve it.)

When I tried to target-feed the angel just now, it pretty much ignored the whole process. A small twitch when I first started to squeeze the bulb of the baster, but other than that - nothing. No effort to move away; no effort to eat the shrimp falling past it's face.

The blenny, for what it's worth, is sitting in it's "cave" of PVC. But I'm pretty sure that's what blennies DO, so I'm not worried about that one. The blenny is also eating - when I target-fed some shrimp around the opening of it's cave, it made an effort to eat it; even going to the other cave opening to slurp up some from that side.

Whilst performing TTM is when you want to use Prime to control ammonia.

I checked the dosing instructions for the Prime and determined that I'd need ~1mL of Prime for 5gal at the normal dose. Does that sound about right? Should I be using a higher/lower dose since this is a "static" environment (no active filter)?

 

[DLHDesign]

Just found the fish laying on the bottom. Ran the gambit of tests:
78.8 F
1.025 SG
7.7 dKH
8 pH
0 NO2
0 NH3/4
10 NO3

Dosed 1 mL of Prime

Called the LFS and they suggested I just transfer the fish into my DT because, "they are sensitive".

 

[DLHDesign]

Just added another 5gal to the QT from the DT. Also moved over one of my power heads.

That's it down in the lower-right... :-(

I've moved the power head up a bit, so that it's right at the surface, pulling in some air along with moving the water. He (whom I'm just going to assume it is male at this point, for no reason what-so-ever except that I'm tried of typing "it") is now more up in the water column amongst the flow, so hopefully a good sign...

 

[DLHDesign]

Pretty sure my power head is too much for him...

 

[Humblefish]

@DLHDesign That powerhead is way too much flow, you want to use a small one pointed towards the surface. The objective is to draw in additional gas exchange by creating a ripple effect at the surface of the water. Honestly, the air stone should be providing enough O2 for such a small fish.

He looks to be breathing heavy in your latest video, is this a correct observation? It is possible he is being afflicted by flukes or velvet, two diseases TTM does not address.

 

[DLHDesign]

That is what my impression was as well - way too much flow.

Yes; labored breathing since he was added to the QT. He's gotten even worse since even that video (which was only about 1hr ago). He's now pretty much just laying on the bottom, not moving and breathing heavy.

PraziPro? If so; how much for a 10gal volume of water?

(Note that at this point, I assume I'm going to loose this fish and am mostly focused on trying to keep the blenny alive.)

 

[Humblefish]

I would first perform a FW dip to confirm/rule out the presence of flukes. See below in red.

Freshwater Dip: Provides temporary relief for Brooklynella, Flukes & "Black Ich", Marine Velvet disease (Amyloodinium); possibly even Ich & Uronema marinum (both unproven). Can be used to confirm the presence of Flukes.

How To Treat - Fill a bucket with RODI water, and use a heater to match the temperature to the water the fish is coming from. Aerate the water heavily for at least 30 minutes prior to doing the dip, then discontinue aeration while performing the dip. Fish aren’t overly pH sensitive for short durations like this, but you can squirt a little tank water into the dip just before the fish goes in to help bring it up.

Place the fish in the freshwater (FW) dip and observe closely. It is not unusual for them to freak out a little at first. Also, tangs are notorious for “playing dead” during a FW dip. The important thing is to watch their gills; they should be breathing heavily at all times during the dip. If breathing slows, it’s time to exit the dip. Dip the fish for no longer than 5 minutes. Multiple dips may be done, but it’s important to give your fish a day to recuperate in-between dips.

For flukes, use a dark (preferably black) bucket so you can see if tiny white worms fall out of the fish (especially out of the gills) at around the 3-4 minute mark. The worms will settle to the bottom, so you can use a flashlight to look for them there as well.

Pros - Provides temporary relief for a wide range of diseases in a chemical free environment. Can “buy you more time” until a proper treatment can be done.

Cons/Side Effects - Not a permanent “fix” for any disease, as FW dips are not potent enough to eradicate all of the parasites/worms afflicting the fish. Some fish can have an adverse reaction to a FW dip by appearing unable to maintain their equilibrium once returned to the aquarium. If this happens, hold the fish upright (using latex, nitrile or rubber gloves), and gently glide him through the water (to get saltwater flowing through the gills again). It is also a good idea to place the fish in an acclimation box until he appears “normal”.

 

[DLHDesign]

Thanks @Humblefish (you must hear that a lot on these forums!) - I'll try that now.

 

[DLHDesign]

Lost him - totally not breathing before I could even get the FW dip set up, much less to temp (my RODI tank runs hotter than my tanks). Very not happy right now, obviously. :-(

What's convention, here? I got the fish at a LFS, but that was a few days ago and I'm sure that they have no guarantees or anything (and I wouldn't expect them to). Do I just chalk this up as a loss and move on?

 

[Humblefish]

Lost him - totally not breathing before I could even get the FW dip set up, much less to temp (my RODI tank runs hotter than my tanks). Very not happy right now, obviously. :-(

Still drop the body in FW (can be tap) to check for flukes.