Still struggling with phosphates...

[Lasse]

I agree with @Thales and @Rick.45cal with one comment. Your choice of food. Dry pellets (high protein content) and Nori will rise your input nitrogen and for the pellets even the phosphorus more than necessary - IMO. Use of some coral foods like reef roid will rise your Phosphorus - could be both good and "bad". As have been said before - the figures is not so important - the stability is more important-

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

So this really is all about food. ...feeding habits. I have just made some major changes to my own feeding habits. (Fingers crossed)

I think that takeaway is not right and not what Randy concludes or recommends in this article or elsewhere. Sure, not feeding will lower your inputs, but as the article shows, it really doesn't take much food to spike up your numbers: "I have not seen compelling evidence that not feeding, or feeding remarkably less, is a good overall solution to having high numbers. It also depends a whole lot on what anials you are feeding." Even the light feeding of a single cube of a relatively low phosphate frozen food to this aquarium supplied most of that target amount in a single feeding. Heavy feeding added ten times that amount in a single day." But we can ask him @Randy Holmes-Farley , am I reading you wrong?

Your inputs are where the nutrients are most likely coming from (but they may be coming from your source water, your salt mix, or any number of other potential inputs, but you have to feed animals (all of them, not just the fish) so they have enough to eat. It would be weird to feed your baby less because you didn't want to deal with diapers.

Reducing the food to get numbers one likes better seems off to me, and sometimes cruel because it can result in not enough food for the animals, as well as no meaningful reduction in nutrients. If the numbers matter to you, I think this is about export (or changing your expectations around the numbers you are chasing). I think it is better all around to keep feeding heavy, but export the nutrients (GFO, Lanthanum, more algae, more water changes, etc) if you don't like your current numbers.

I have not seen compelling evidence that not feeding, or feeding remarkably less, is a good overall solution to having high numbers. It also depends a whole lot on what anials you are feeding.

That said, I would be interested if the results of your feeding changes, as long as you make no other changes to the system in the time that you are logging the effects of those changes. Most of the time, anecdotes around this topic are made more difficult because people are trying many things at the same time to make a difference.
[/QUOTE]
Nice write up... thank you for this. However, my over simplified comment about this being about “my” feeding behavior is still accurate. Here are the changes I made in the last two weeks...

Other than feeding... I starting putting the PhosGaurd in a reactor I was using for Carbon (I put the carbon in a mesh bag.

I reduced the amount of time I leave Nori sheets in the tank from 24/7 down to just 4 hours and only every other day.

I replaced feeding dehydrated krill (for my eel and anemone) with human grade frozen shrimp.

I am feeding the same amount of frozen food, but now I am washing out the liquid parts of the frozen foods.

I reduced the amount of pellets I feed from 4 scoops to 3. These are high in phosphate but still very nutritional for my fish.

As of this morning my Phosphates are down to .21.

 

[ge4rhead]

phosphat E from brightwell aquatics works very well if you want to get it down quick

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

This topic seems to garner a lot of attention. Let’s be clear... I am not trying to chase a number. I am however learning to deal with phosphates. When I bought the Hannah checker, I was shocked to see my phosphates were running at almost .6 I think we can all agree that is just too high.

To be honest... if I am ”chasing a number” it is just to get close to .1 and then just see how my tank and the animals in it react to that. I am never going to starve my fish! I like feeding them heavily. I’d like to think I am just no longer feeding them stupidly.

 

[Lasse]

with human grade frozen shrimp

A little warning - I do not know if it is true for your shrimps but frozen products for human consumptions are sometimes treated with phosphorus compounds before freezing. E338 - E343 and E450-452 are such compounds. In Sweden - E numbers is reported on the package - do not know how it is in the US.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

phosphat E from brightwell aquatics works very well if you want to get it down quick

I do not want to bring it Down quick... I want to manage it it down to a lower number over the long term

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

A little warning - I do not know if it is true for your shrimps but frozen products for human consumptions are sometimes treated with phosphorus compounds before freezing. E338 - E343 and E450-452 are such compounds. In Sweden - E numbers is reported on the package - do not know how it is in the US.

Sincerely Lasse

Oooofffff.... didn’t know that! I’ll look into it. Thank you

 

[Thales]

I think that takeaway is not right and not what Randy concludes or recommends in this article or elsewhere. Sure, not feeding will lower your inputs, but as the article shows, it really doesn't take much food to spike up your numbers: "I have not seen compelling evidence that not feeding, or feeding remarkably less, is a good overall solution to having high numbers. It also depends a whole lot on what anials you are feeding." Even the light feeding of a single cube of a relatively low phosphate frozen food to this aquarium supplied most of that target amount in a single feeding. Heavy feeding added ten times that amount in a single day." But we can ask him @Randy Holmes-Farley , am I reading you wrong?

Your inputs are where the nutrients are most likely coming from (but they may be coming from your source water, your salt mix, or any number of other potential inputs, but you have to feed animals (all of them, not just the fish) so they have enough to eat. It would be weird to feed your baby less because you didn't want to deal with diapers.

Reducing the food to get numbers one likes better seems off to me, and sometimes cruel because it can result in not enough food for the animals, as well as no meaningful reduction in nutrients. If the numbers matter to you, I think this is about export (or changing your expectations around the numbers you are chasing). I think it is better all around to keep feeding heavy, but export the nutrients (GFO, Lanthanum, more algae, more water changes, etc) if you don't like your current numbers.

I have not seen compelling evidence that not feeding, or feeding remarkably less, is a good overall solution to having high numbers. It also depends a whole lot on what anials you are feeding.

That said, I would be interested if the results of your feeding changes, as long as you make no other changes to the system in the time that you are logging the effects of those changes. Most of the time, anecdotes around this topic are made more difficult because people are trying many things at the same time to make a difference.

Nice write up... thank you for this. However, my over simplified comment about this being about “my” feeding behavior is still accurate. Here are the changes I made in the last two weeks...

Other than feeding... I starting putting the PhosGaurd in a reactor I was using for Carbon (I put the carbon in a mesh bag.

I reduced the amount of time I leave Nori sheets in the tank from 24/7 down to just 4 hours and only every other day.

I replaced feeding dehydrated krill (for my eel and anemone) with human grade frozen shrimp.

I am feeding the same amount of frozen food, but now I am washing out the liquid parts of the frozen foods.

I reduced the amount of pellets I feed from 4 scoops to 3. These are high in phosphate but still very nutritional for my fish.

As of this morning my Phosphates are down to .21.

It's the phosguard lowering your numbers

 

[Thales]

This topic seems to garner a lot of attention. Let’s be clear... I am not trying to chase a number. I am however learning to deal with phosphates. When I bought the Hannah checker, I was shocked to see my phosphates were running at almost .6 I think we can all agree that is just too high.

Mine is 1.3

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

It's the phosguard lowering your numbers

Are you saying that nothing else I am doing matters at all?

 

[Cabinetman]

Mine is 1.3

You got any pics of your tank? I looked at your threads and didn’t see any threads with tank builds or any thing. Suggesting that 1.3 is somehow acceptable seams a bit off. Or am I reading into it wrong?

 

[Cabinetman]

For me I use lanthanum chloride. The seaklear pool stuff. I have for a few years. Cheap and easy. Dripped into a 5 micron filter sock.

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

You got any pics of your tank? I looked at your threads and didn’t see any threads with tank builds or any thing. Suggesting that 1.3 is somehow acceptable seams a bit off. Or am I reading into it wrong?

He has a build thread... and by the looks of it, one of the nicest tanks I have ever seen!!!

Or were you asking me?

 

[Lasse]

You got any pics of your tank? I looked at your threads and didn’t see any threads with tank builds or any thing. Suggesting that 1.3 is somehow acceptable seams a bit off. Or am I reading into it wrong?

Rich Ross - Home Tank - guess the phosphate

This tank was built before r2r, here is a link to some links about the build. http://packedhead.net/home-reef/ Current test results: 03-17-2017 Ammonia (NH3-4) Good 0 0.000 - 0.050 mg/L 03-17-2017 Nitrite (NO2) Good 0.006 0.000 - 0.100 mg/L 03-17-2017 Phosphate...

www.reef2reef.com

And this is my old tank - hitting 1.65 in phosphate when the video was taken


Sincerely Lasse

 

[MightyMO]

Me too... don't feel bad...

 

[Cabinetman]

Pretty wild! I stand corrected. From one extreme to the next. I don’t think I’m going to concern myself with my .15 level then lol

 

[Lasse]

Pretty wild! I stand corrected. From one extreme to the next. I don’t think I’m going to concern myself with my .15 level then lol

My new tanks run between 0.05 to 0.12 - it works too.



Sincerely Lasse

 

[Thales]

Are you saying that nothing else I am doing matters at all?

Likely IME. The food imput changes you made aren't that massive, and rinsing makes a negligable difference. I mean, they could make a difference in some areas - the freeze dried food is not great, and fewer pellets makes sense if you have been over feeding from the perspective of the animals. You are still adding, but the phosguard is taking it out.

 

[Shawn_epicurious]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone on this thread. This was a really cool learning experience for me. : )

You guys rock!

 

[Maxx Yung]

I just wanted to say thank you to everyone on this thread. This was a really cool learning experience for me. : )

You guys rock!

Hey, I had my own thread with my issues with Phosphate. We literally have the exact same problem.
I got .75 Phosphate, looking to get it to 0.1. Like you, I'm not chasing a number, but getting within that range of 0.03 - 0.1.
I got a 200g as well, and using the same salt. I didn't read through everything, but for my tank I'm pretty sure the phosphate is coming from the food and the live rocks leeching it.

I've tried the exact solutions you have:
Rinsing the food - Very minimal difference to me. Might stop doing it as it is a pain and it can feed the corals.
Stopped feeding freeze-dried krill for my anemone.
Fed less pellets - Pretty big difference IMO.
Ran PhosGuard.

One thing I have to say is that PhosGuard isn't effective at all. For you and me, Phosguard for a 200g takes a lot of money to maintain the phosphate at the range of 0.03 - 0.1. In the end, I went with Phosphat-E, like someone said. Phosphat-E does bring phosphate down quick, but I think using it would maintain phosphate much better.
As Phosphat-E works more efficiently with higher phosphate, I would use that if phosphate goes above 0.20. However, once it's below that number, it doesn't work as well, and that's where you should start adding the GFO/PhosGuard. I'm doing this since Phosphat-E is cheap, and will save $ instead of GFO/PhosGuard running all the time. You should research into using Phosphat-E.

My 2nd time dosing Phsophat-E, went from .75 to .5. Planning to do another dose this weekend. After I get below .2, there goes the PhosGuard.