Store Credit No Refund??

[MnFish1]

It’s the original stores responsibility because the shipping is part of their business model. When I order corals, I pay shipping to the vendor, not to the shipping company (and I have no choice I who they use). I am paying for a product and paying for the shipping, if I don’t get what I ordered, I shouldn’t have to pay shipping again, I fulfilled my end of the sales agreement (I mean rhetorically, not talking about TOS), it shouldn’t be up to me to pay for shipping again to be made while (receive what I ordered and paid for). When I buy something from Amazon, and it doesn’t arrive, or is broken, or isn’t what I ordered, I get a refund for the entire price I paid, shipping included (I have Prime, but if you don’t they refund shipping). I personally don’t have an issue with store credit vs a refund, but shipping should be free on any replacement, the consumer shouldn’t have to pay for shipping twice (or 3, 4, 5+ times if it’s continually DOA).

While I respect your opinion, for many companies this is not the case. Point being - if you don't want to deal with those companies don't. But - after you've ordered something and there is a problem - don't complain (IMHO) about the policy.

 

[ssdawood]

I will never settle for ordering livestock online .

It's not all bad
I buy a lot online. Have some bad experience and a lot of good ones.
Life is like this. Walking into a store,buying a coral and taking it home doesn't guarantee it will live.
It might still die.

I have no problem. I pay for shipping twice as seller also has to pay.
When we say we got a dead coral it's usually a shipping delay. Very rarely a package on time arrive in bad shape.
Now a dead coral due to shipping delay is not fault of business, but still I only shop at stores that do offer replacement. Shipping I pay twice.

There are so many fishes and corals I can't buy local.
This is a hobby. Do what makes you smile. I am happy shopping online at WWC, Live Aquaria, TSM, Ebay Cornbred etc.

I live upstate so all stores are 2 hrs for me. Costs me time, money etc

I like to read policy before ordering.
Buy the vendor not the coral.
A good vendor won't do you dirty.
Actually a good business won't do you dirty.
This is true for us too. A good buyer is compromising.
It works both ways.
You need that good vendor to stay in business.

Actually OP wasn't complaining, he made that clear. He remembers good old days where we got refundd.

 

[Rmckoy]

It's not all bad
I buy a lot online. Have some bad experience and a lot of good ones.
Life is like this. Walking into a store,buying a coral and taking it home doesn't guarantee it will live.
It might still die.

I have no problem. I pay for shipping twice as seller also has to pay.
When we say we got a dead coral it's usually a shipping delay. Very rarely a package on time arrive in bad shape.
Now a dead coral due to shipping delay is not fault of business, but still I only shop at stores that do offer replacement. Shipping I pay twice.

There are so many fishes and corals I can't buy local.
This is a hobby. Do what makes you smile. I am happy shopping online at WWC, Live Aquaria, TSM, Ebay Cornbred etc.

I live upstate so all stores are 2 hrs for me. Costs me time, money etc

I like to read policy before ordering.
Buy the vendor not the coral.
A good vendor won't do you dirty.
Actually a good business won't do you dirty.
This is true for us too. A good buyer is compromising.
It works both ways.
You need that good vendor to stay in business.

Actually OP wasn't complaining, he made that clear. He remembers good old days where we got refundd.

I would only assume buying corals and paying shipping in different countries a little different . Being in Canada the winters are cold .
most companies will not even ship livestock in the winter months .
As for the first statement of going into a store and buying something and it’s still not guaranteed to live.
I agree but at least you had a choice to pick the done that you liked or looked the best for the price .

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I disagree. For a price - someone will insure everything.

Sure. Go ahead and post a link to the agencies you find...

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Similar to here … we can buy pet insurance .
insure your pets which it covers most things normal families couldn’t afford if they were to take their pets to the vet

It does not pay anything if the pet dies though. Apples and oranges.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

.....
As for the first statement of going into a store and buying something and it’s still not guaranteed to live.
I agree but at least you had a choice to pick the done that you liked or looked the best for the price .

This. The onus is on me outside of any policies the store has in regards to livestock or coral. There is no mystery on shipping. I chose that specimen, I took it home and it either worked out or it died.

I've had a LOT of fish die, and have ate a LOT of money as most LFS have a 24 hour policy, if any guarantee @ all. I'm ok with that roll of the dice. The increaced risk of shipping issues keeps me away from online ordering. Also the desire to keep my local LFS alive.

 

[Spare time]

Shipping is still the stores responsibility.

Anyways. Reverse charges it’s usually against their TOS with the cc processor anyway.

Not always. Sometimes things happen in shipping out of the store's control. Its like saying its your fault if your flight gets delayed.

 

[Rmckoy]

It does not pay anything if the pet dies though. Apples and oranges.

Ill read into it ….
I’m sure there is small print in regards to after death

 

[a.t.t.r]

Not always. Sometimes things happen in shipping out of the store's control. Its like saying its your fault if your flight gets delayed.

You seem to be missing the point. Shipping is the shippers responsibility. It is up to them to make sure the product arrives intact. It is also up to them to take out insurance not yours (dry goods I’m referring to with insurance ). The only time it isn’t the shippers responsibility is with some freight shipping but you usually fill out forms for liability.

 

[a.t.t.r]

Also shipper can buy insurance that covers the animals if the shipment is late. If the shipment is on time and they packed it correctly there is no reason they should not accept full responsibility.

 

[Spare time]

You seem to be missing the point. Shipping is the shippers responsibility. It is up to them to make sure the product arrives intact. It is also up to them to take out insurance not yours (dry goods I’m referring to with insurance ). The only time it isn’t the shippers responsibility is with some freight shipping but you usually fill out forms for liability.

I am not missing the point. I am saying that if the shipper messes up, its their fault by nature and should handle the product refund. If an uber eats driver drops your food in their car, is it Burger Kings fault? Should burger king take the financial burden (a very small one lol) from that? No, the uber driver should replace it. What the store should do is send them a second. If that doesn't make it, do a refund. There is an inherent liability when shipping living things and both parties know this. Usually that is why there is a big agreement page when buying something alive.

 

[MnFish1]

Also shipper can buy insurance that covers the animals if the shipment is late. If the shipment is on time and they packed it correctly there is no reason they should not accept full responsibility.

One would think this - however Fedex - for example does not cover live animals at all. I do not know about UPS. But - you're kind of mixing apples and oranges. There is the 'Seller' and the 'Shipper'. If you're saying the shipper should eat shipping costs for re-shipping a death - in principal - I agree with you - but there are very few companies that do this anymore. And I am not aware of any who offer a 'full refund' as compared to a 'credit'.

 

[a.t.t.r]

One would think this - however Fedex - for example does not cover live animals at all. I do not know about UPS. But - you're kind of mixing apples and oranges. There is the 'Seller' and the 'Shipper'. If you're saying the shipper should eat shipping costs for re-shipping a death - in principal - I agree with you - but there are very few companies that do this anymore. And I am not aware of any who offer a 'full refund' as compared to a 'credit'.

No there are actually separate insurance issuers you can buy add on insurance with. And when I say shipper I mean the seller.

 

[Reefing102]

Liability insurance is completely different than covering live animals losses... No one insures for that.

While I agree that liability is different than livestock coverage, I think @PacificEastAquaculture has some form of insurance they use on their shipping

It’s the original stores responsibility because the shipping is part of their business model. When I order corals, I pay shipping to the vendor, not to the shipping company (and I have no choice I who they use). I am paying for a product and paying for the shipping, if I don’t get what I ordered, I shouldn’t have to pay shipping again, I fulfilled my end of the sales agreement (I mean rhetorically, not talking about TOS), it shouldn’t be up to me to pay for shipping again to be made while (receive what I ordered and paid for). When I buy something from Amazon, and it doesn’t arrive, or is broken, or isn’t what I ordered, I get a refund for the entire price I paid, shipping included (I have Prime, but if you don’t they refund shipping). I personally don’t have an issue with store credit vs a refund, but shipping should be free on any replacement, the consumer shouldn’t have to pay for shipping twice (or 3, 4, 5+ times if it’s continually DOA).

While I understand what your getting at, this is a terrible comparison in my opinion. Almost all Amazon packages are delivered by Amazon (not by FedEx or UPS), so it would be Amazons responsibility for the package the entire time. Once a package is left with a 3rd shipper, the responsibility for the package, goes to the shipping company as the store has no control at that point, whereas Amazon has full control over the entire situation.
————————————————————
With all of that said, does the policy appear unfair, absolutely. If I order online though, I generally try to order enough to get free shipping (even when ordering the replacement) as I’m aware most places have these policies.

I know I had one vendor, that had even more terrible policy, if not just store credit but expiring store credit (must use in 60 or 90 days). I can’t remember the vendor name but I don’t believe it was R2R vendor.

 

[a.t.t.r]

While I agree that liability is different than livestock coverage, I think @PacificEastAquaculture has some form of insurance they use on their shipping


While I understand what your getting at, this is a terrible comparison in my opinion. Almost all Amazon packages are delivered by Amazon (not by FedEx or UPS), so it would be Amazons responsibility for the package the entire time. Once a package is left with a 3rd shipper, the responsibility for the package, goes to the shipping company as the store has no control at that point, whereas Amazon has full control over the entire situation.
————————————————————
With all of that said, does the policy appear unfair, absolutely. If I order online though, I generally try to order enough to get free shipping (even when ordering the replacement) as I’m aware most places have these policies.

I know I had one vendor, that had even more terrible policy, if not just store credit but expiring store credit (must use in 60 or 90 days). I can’t remember the vendor name but I don’t believe it was R2R vendor.

You are very wrong about who the responsibility is with. It remains with the seller.

 

[PacificEastAquaculture]

While I agree that liability is different than livestock coverage, I think @PacificEastAquaculture has some form of insurance they use on their shipping


While I understand what your getting at, this is a terrible comparison in my opinion. Almost all Amazon packages are delivered by Amazon (not by FedEx or UPS), so it would be Amazons responsibility for the package the entire time. Once a package is left with a 3rd shipper, the responsibility for the package, goes to the shipping company as the store has no control at that point, whereas Amazon has full control over the entire situation.
————————————————————
With all of that said, does the policy appear unfair, absolutely. If I order online though, I generally try to order enough to get free shipping (even when ordering the replacement) as I’m aware most places have these policies.

I know I had one vendor, that had even more terrible policy, if not just store credit but expiring store credit (must use in 60 or 90 days). I can’t remember the vendor name but I don’t believe it was R2R vendor.

Yes, we insure our orders via UPS Capital and we absorb the cost. This insurance covers the cost of shipping as well as livestock if the box is delayed regardless of cause.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

It’s the original stores responsibility because the shipping is part of their business model. When I order corals, I pay shipping to the vendor, not to the shipping company (and I have no choice I who they use). I am paying for a product and paying for the shipping, if I don’t get what I ordered, I shouldn’t have to pay shipping again, I fulfilled my end of the sales agreement (I mean rhetorically, not talking about TOS), it shouldn’t be up to me to pay for shipping again to be made while (receive what I ordered and paid for). When I buy something from Amazon, and it doesn’t arrive, or is broken, or isn’t what I ordered, I get a refund for the entire price I paid, shipping included (I have Prime, but if you don’t they refund shipping). I personally don’t have an issue with store credit vs a refund, but shipping should be free on any replacement, the consumer shouldn’t have to pay for shipping twice (or 3, 4, 5+ times if it’s continually DOA).

With that mindset the seller would need to raise their price to a level 5 to 10 times higher just to cover for your estimate of what is fair. These mom and pop operations don't have the economy of scale to match Amazon or Wal-Mart. They are trying not to price themselves out of the market and use the only available shipping methods for someone buying one or two corals or fish at a time. It is a headache and money loser for the seller and the buyer. This McDonalds mentality of I get it my way at the drive thru computer screen is making most customers entitled jerks. No wonder the aquarium industry is facing severe headwinds all the time. I am going to say this once and let it sink in....no one can guarantee livestock period! Can you guarantee your own life or that of another? Forget about it and I am not talking about death insurance. The business model of online buying is completely wrong for live fish, inverts and corals. Now couple that with refusing to buy locally for dry goods and you just killed the only way a store can survive. BRS and similar businesses are killing the best channel for products, service and livestock...the local store. It is a wonder any of the local stores survive. Try to make a living in the aquarium industry before throwing out your position. I have done it for longer than some of you have been alive and that is why I am no longer in the race. Buying something alive is not a one way street you are partners with the seller to try to overcome the long odds of live arrival. You are expecting them to trust your ability to properly acclimate, feed, medicate and care for the livestock they shipped to you. You have to develop trust and no matter how good someone is there will be death and that is a fact of all our lives. Deal with it in a respectful manner.

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

Hey everyone I want to share my opinion on something I’m tired of seeing.

“If coral arrives is doa , we DO NOT do refunds only “store credit”.

like what type of policy is that? I don’t think that’s fair to put you into that position where you’re stuck even if they shipped to you and it died you’re still stuck with them no matter what , if you place a coral order for a specific coral and it came doa you should have every right to get your money back not a “store credit”. What are you guys thoughts? I’m seeing a lot of online vendors doing this nonsense now almost all , it sucks , I miss old school reefin

You have 2 options when buying shipped coral:

Option A: Buy cheap coral w/o a guarantee.

Option B: Buy expensive coral from a place like WWC, TSA, etc. that has a DOA guarantee.

When you factor in liability and risk of DOA you're paying the same. Choose the method that makes you happy (or less triggered).

 

[Roli's Reef Ranch]

+1

True. And DON'T use PayPal. They will not protect you from fraud. Got ripped off by them and a seller for dry goods. Sided with the seller even after I provided proof of returning the item after he refused delivery. Had a tracking number. They did this because I couldn't confirm delivery! Insane.

 

[MaxTremors]

With that mindset the seller would need to raise their price to a level 5 to 10 times higher just to cover for your estimate of what is fair. These mom and pop operations don't have the economy of scale to match Amazon or Wal-Mart. They are trying not to price themselves out of the market and use the only available shipping methods for someone buying one or two corals or fish at a time. It is a headache and money loser for the seller and the buyer. This McDonalds mentality of I get it my way at the drive thru computer screen is making most customers entitled jerks. No wonder the aquarium industry is facing severe headwinds all the time. I am going to say this once and let it sink in....no one can guarantee livestock period! Can you guarantee your own life or that of another? Forget about it and I am not talking about death insurance. The business model of online buying is completely wrong for live fish, inverts and corals. Now couple that with refusing to buy locally for dry goods and you just killed the only way a store can survive. BRS and similar businesses are killing the best channel for products, service and livestock...the local store. It is a wonder any of the local stores survive. Try to make a living in the aquarium industry before throwing out your position. I have done it for longer than some of you have been alive and that is why I am no longer in the race. Buying something alive is not a one way street you are partners with the seller to try to overcome the long odds of live arrival. You are expecting them to trust your ability to properly acclimate, feed, medicate and care for the livestock they shipped to you. You have to develop trust and no matter how good someone is there will be death and that is a fact of all our lives. Deal with it in a respectful manner.

Yeah, I don’t know where you got any of that from my post. All I’m saying is that that if you order something, and you pay for shipping, if you don’t receive what you ordered, you shouldn’t have to pay for shipping again. I don’t think it’s ‘entitled’ to expect to receive what you paid for.

I also don’t think the assertion that vendors would have to raise prices 5-10x to cover shipping on DOA replacements is even remotely accurate, like not even close (if covering the cost of DOAs would raise prices that much, that would be mean over 90% of shipments are DOAs, and if that’s the case then ethically they shouldn’t be shipping live animals in the first place). I don’t have a problem with prices going up a little bit, if that’s what needs to happen, for the vendor to work shipping on DOAs into their overhead, but I think that charging the consumer an extra $30-$50 to receive the product (I don’t view live animals as ‘products’, but legally, that’s what they are) they already paid shipping for is tantamount to extortion (they don’t offer refunds, only store credit, so unless you’re okay with just losing all the money you spent, you have no choice but to pay shipping again).

I’m well aware that nearly every vendor charges shipping for DOA replacements, and I’ve never complained about it to a vendor when I’ve had DOA’s, because those are the TOS I agreed to, but I think as an industry wide policy, it’s unethical and anti-consumer.