Strange Issues....

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The Gem was just put in the tank the first part of the week (Monday evening to be exact). it was currently the first fish to die from the new ones we put in. There are other fish in the tank that have been there are months. Because of that, I was ruling out velvet because my understanding is the other fish would already be dead.

In regards to Ich, the gem had not been in the tank that long. That is why I am so confused because it should have taken longer to die from it.

Now for flukes, we did some research and some of the signs of flukes are:

Loss of color
Cloudy eyes
Heavy breathing
Mucus buildup

The fish that have died all had a severe loss in color. I couldn’t do a slide on them because I didn’t have a microscope at that time. I am wondering if the excess mucus could be allowing sand or other particles to stick to them. The other strange issue is the time frame for them going in the tank to death.

I guess a question would be: Would dosing the tank with Prazi be bad if it could be flukes? Shoals we discontinue metroplex?

Skip the metro in the food unless you are preparing it as a 1% by weight formula. If you are just mixing it in, you'll almost never get the dose correct. Too little and it has no benefit, too much is very bitter and the fish stop eating it.

The fast timeline of the tang dying doesn't line up with flukes unless it had an infection starting at the dealer.

Dosing with prazi is typically not going to cause any major side effects as long as you add aeration.

 

[Jody Owens]

Skip the metro in the food unless you are preparing it as a 1% by weight formula. If you are just mixing it in, you'll almost never get the dose correct. Too little and it has no benefit, too much is very bitter and the fish stop eating it.

The fast timeline of the tang dying doesn't line up with flukes unless it had an infection starting at the dealer.

Dosing with prazi is typically not going to cause any major side effects as long as you add aeration.

The Gem was from a person along with a couple other fish. I split them up into that display and my other tank. The other tank is not showing any issues with any of the fish. The major difference is that tank has all the water going through the UV from the sump. I am redoing the UV on the tank with the issues tonight. I am going to take it from going Sump to Sump to Sump to Display. So there will be the normal returns and a return going into the DT from the UV.

In regards to the issue DT, I added an airstone last night running on a pump full blast. So there is a lot of additional water. I am wondering if low oxygen levels could have been causing issues too. I will stop dosing the Metro and do two rounds of Prazi to rule that issue out.

Here is a generic rundown on DT:

We purchased the DT from a person in Oklahoma and had it moved to us in KCMO. The person that moved it also installed it. Everything was going good initially when it was set up. We had the original owner's fish along with some of ours from one of the smaller aquariums. The fish were doing right off, but the tank's temperature was having an issue caused by the canopy, outdated lights and the UV system. To help keep the temperature down, we turned off the UV. We then purchased https://www.ebay.com/itm/3336483558...uid=sLSP2YcOQqG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY A few days after putting these in, we noticed issues with the fish. Some of the fish died a few days later. We then attempted to remove as many of these snails as possible from the system. They were put into both DT's and removed from both DT's. We kept feeding and everything was eating okay that didn't die. We waited for everything to go back to normal and then purchased some additional fish to go into the DT. We put those fish in and they didn't eat at all and shortly after started getting sick and dieing. This was over the course of a week at most. It was difficult to pinpoint exactly what was happening. It didn't appear to be ich because the spots were too numerous, but also not velvet because the way it looked. We then waited again for everything to go back to normal. We purchased some fish from a person that was moving. We split those fish up into the two different DTs and the ones in the issue DT did eat, but died in the course of 3-5 days.

The issues we are struggling with is how are the main fish still alive and doing okay while almost everything new is dieing off. I contacted TSA and they said they had a customer that had a similar issue that was caused by a bobbet worm. I am just at a loss because I didn't know fish could be immune to velvet.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The Gem was from a person along with a couple other fish. I split them up into that display and my other tank. The other tank is not showing any issues with any of the fish. The major difference is that tank has all the water going through the UV from the sump. I am redoing the UV on the tank with the issues tonight. I am going to take it from going Sump to Sump to Sump to Display. So there will be the normal returns and a return going into the DT from the UV.

In regards to the issue DT, I added an airstone last night running on a pump full blast. So there is a lot of additional water. I am wondering if low oxygen levels could have been causing issues too. I will stop dosing the Metro and do two rounds of Prazi to rule that issue out.

Here is a generic rundown on DT:

We purchased the DT from a person in Oklahoma and had it moved to us in KCMO. The person that moved it also installed it. Everything was going good initially when it was set up. We had the original owner's fish along with some of ours from one of the smaller aquariums. The fish were doing right off, but the tank's temperature was having an issue caused by the canopy, outdated lights and the UV system. To help keep the temperature down, we turned off the UV. We then purchased https://www.ebay.com/itm/3336483558...uid=sLSP2YcOQqG&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY A few days after putting these in, we noticed issues with the fish. Some of the fish died a few days later. We then attempted to remove as many of these snails as possible from the system. They were put into both DT's and removed from both DT's. We kept feeding and everything was eating okay that didn't die. We waited for everything to go back to normal and then purchased some additional fish to go into the DT. We put those fish in and they didn't eat at all and shortly after started getting sick and dieing. This was over the course of a week at most. It was difficult to pinpoint exactly what was happening. It didn't appear to be ich because the spots were too numerous, but also not velvet because the way it looked. We then waited again for everything to go back to normal. We purchased some fish from a person that was moving. We split those fish up into the two different DTs and the ones in the issue DT did eat, but died in the course of 3-5 days.

The issues we are struggling with is how are the main fish still alive and doing okay while almost everything new is dieing off. I contacted TSA and they said they had a customer that had a similar issue that was caused by a bobbet worm. I am just at a loss because I didn't know fish could be immune to velvet.

Sorry - there is too much for me to unpack there. A couple of things stood out; you said the spots were too numerous to be ich? Ich can cause fish to be covered in so many spots that they all run together.

The snails might have carried disease into your tank, if they were being housed with sick fish beforehand. However, fish dying just a few days later doesn’t add up to that. Parasitic infections always have a lag time, even velvet takes 4+ days of infection before fish begin dying. Flukes take weeks to months and Ich is in between.

Then, I’m not sure what you mean by fish being immune to velvet? Some species are less prone to velvet, but there is no immunity.

 

[Jody Owens]

Sorry - there is too much for me to unpack there. A couple of things stood out; you said the spots were too numerous to be ich? Ich can cause fish to be covered in so many spots that they all run together.

The snails might have carried disease into your tank, if they were being housed with sick fish beforehand. However, fish dying just a few days later doesn’t add up to that. Parasitic infections always have a lag time, even velvet takes 4+ days of infection before fish begin dying. Flukes take weeks to months and Ich is in between.

Then, I’m not sure what you mean by fish being immune to velvet? Some species are less prone to velvet, but there is no immunity.

This is exactly what we are struggling with. None of the timeframes seem to add up. We have fish that have been in the tank for months and are doing great. Most of all of the new fish died within a matter of a week. So it doesn't add up that it would be velvet because nothing should have survived for that long. It makes me almost question if it is a combination of factors like a pest because there have been comments that it looks like the fish were attacked. Let me know if this makes sense:

Flukes? It shouldn't be flukes because a fish should not be introduced to the tank and die within a week.
Ich? It is the same as flukes for a timeline
Velvet? It doesn't add up because the fish are in the tank for months and doing okay.

The only thing I will say is the tank runs a little warmer at around 79.5-80 degrees compared to my other tank. Could I take any samples of the water to show anything? I really want to get this figured out.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

This is exactly what we are struggling with. None of the timeframes seem to add up. We have fish that have been in the tank for months and are doing great. Most of all of the new fish died within a matter of a week. So it doesn't add up that it would be velvet because nothing should have survived for that long. It makes me almost question if it is a combination of factors like a pest because there have been comments that it looks like the fish were attacked. Let me know if this makes sense:

Flukes? It shouldn't be flukes because a fish should not be introduced to the tank and die within a week.
Ich? It is the same as flukes for a timeline
Velvet? It doesn't add up because the fish are in the tank for months and doing okay.

The only thing I will say is the tank runs a little warmer at around 79.5-80 degrees compared to my other tank. Could I take any samples of the water to show anything? I really want to get this figured out.

The water temperature isn’t an issue.


There is a company, Aquabiomics that can run DNA tests on aquarium water to try and determine what pathogens are present. It is an emerging technology so I can’t say if it would work in your case.

 

[Jody Owens]

The water temperature isn’t an issue.


There is a company, Aquabiomics that can run DNA tests on aquarium water to try and determine what pathogens are present. It is an emerging technology so I can’t say if it would work in your case.

Okay, I wasn’t sure if there was anything that I could do personally. Was my breakdown correct with my statements?

 

[Jody Owens]

Being that statements were correct regarding ich, flukes, etc, what could it be?

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Being that statements were correct regarding ich, flukes, etc, what could it be?

One thing is that there may not be a common thread for these fish losses. Fish loss by itself is not always unifying symptom.

I went back and looked at the pictures more closely - the tangs both seem to have ich, with the late gem tang being the worse obviously.

It is not uncommon for fish to have more than one parasitic infection at a time - ich and flukes is the most common. The best way to deal with that is with hyposalinity (no invertebrates present though).

Without good images/video to work from, I can’t really diagnose this. Even with that, remote diagnosis is really tricky, symptoms so commonly overlap. I use skin scrapes and gill clips and a microscope to really refine diagnoses.

 

[Jody Owens]

One thing is that there may not be a common thread for these fish losses. Fish loss by itself is not always unifying symptom.

I went back and looked at the pictures more closely - the tangs both seem to have ich, with the late gem tang being the worse obviously.

It is not uncommon for fish to have more than one parasitic infection at a time - ich and flukes is the most common. The best way to deal with that is with hyposalinity (no invertebrates present though).

Without good images/video to work from, I can’t really diagnose this. Even with that, remote diagnosis is really tricky, symptoms so commonly overlap. I use skin scrapes and gill clips and a microscope to really refine diagnoses.

How could a Gem have that excessive amounts of ich when only being in the tank for a few days? It was perfectly fine prior. This is the thing that we are questioning. What are the odds it could be a bacterial issue and not really parasitic? Would it be possible for the fish to have a small amount of ich, but the death to be related to something else? I do agree about the remote diagnosis. What could I provide to help with this? Do you have link to instructions on how to do the skin scrapes and gill clips.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

How could a Gem have that excessive amounts of ich when only being in the tank for a few days? It was perfectly fine prior. This is the thing that we are questioning. What are the odds it could be a bacterial issue and not really parasitic? Would it be possible for the fish to have a small amount of ich, but the death to be related to something else? I do agree about the remote diagnosis. What could I provide to help with this? Do you have link to instructions on how to do the skin scrapes and gill clips.

All I can suggest is that the gem had ich prior to its acquisition.

I have my skin scrape and gill clip procedure written up, but I haven’t had a chance to post it yet. Gill clips are tough to do - you need a fish anesthetic, iris scissors and a steady hand. Skin scrapes are easier - you just gently hold the fish and scrape a tiny bit of skin mucus off into a slide. The real trick is then identifying what you see.

I generally use 20x to 40x magnification to view parasites.

 

[Jody Owens]

One thing is that there may not be a common thread for these fish losses. Fish loss by itself is not always unifying symptom.

I went back and looked at the pictures more closely - the tangs both seem to have ich, with the late gem tang being the worse obviously.

It is not uncommon for fish to have more than one parasitic infection at a time - ich and flukes is the most common. The best way to deal with that is with hyposalinity (no invertebrates present though).

Without good images/video to work from, I can’t really diagnose this. Even with that, remote diagnosis is really tricky, symptoms so commonly overlap. I use skin scrapes and gill clips and a microscope to really refine diagnoses.

All I can suggest is that the gem had ich prior to its acquisition.

I have my skin scrape and gill clip procedure written up, but I haven’t had a chance to post it yet. Gill clips are tough to do - you need a fish anesthetic, iris scissors and a steady hand. Skin scrapes are easier - you just gently hold the fish and scrape a tiny bit of skin mucus off into a slide. The real trick is then identifying what you see.

I generally use 20x to 40x magnification to view parasites.

I was going to do it on a fish that dies. I can upload pictures. I have an AmScope with a camera.