Stringy white clownfish poop

[4FordFamily]

Likely the coral was the carrier. The fish is possible as well.

Best thing to do here is add general cure or Metroplex + focus to food and feed for 14 days.

1 scoop of each added to a tablespoon of prepared frozen food.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/internal-pathogens.267419/

This exactly

 

[Brew12]

FYI: if you click this link, please read through the entire thread, not just the article, as he finally admits that all the scientific research shows that white stringy poop generally is a good indicator of intestinal parasites. He also posted links to recommended treatment that says binding medication to food is preferable to using it in a bath, which requires that you treat the fish quickly before they stop eating.

The article seems to be interested only in spreading misinformation online. This is a crusade against treating fish that isn’t informed by facts.

White stringy poo is released intestinal mucus. A healthy fish will have intestinal parasites, just like you would not be healthy without them. You are spreading misinformation online if you are trying to convince people that widespread unregulated use of antibiotics doesn't cause issues. There is a reason that antibiotics such as metro require a prescription in large portions of the world. The science is solid that it is causing problems. In fact, the FDA was supposed to make all antibiotics in the US require a prescription starting in 2020 but that guidance was recently pulled back for further consultation.

And just to be clear, @Lasse isn't against treating sick fish. He is against treating fish that don't have a disease. There is a significant difference between having a pathogen and having a disease. It also lines up with best practices of the FDA.
https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-info...ntimicrobial-resistance-questions-and-answers

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

White stringy poo is released intestinal mucus. A healthy fish will have intestinal parasites, just like you would not be healthy without them. You are spreading misinformation online if you are trying to convince people that widespread unregulated use of antibiotics doesn't cause issues. There is a reason that antibiotics such as metro require a prescription in large portions of the world. The science is solid that it is causing problems. In fact, the FDA was supposed to make all antibiotics in the US require a prescription starting in 2020 but that guidance was recently pulled back for further consultation.

And just to be clear, @Lasse isn't against treating sick fish. He is against treating fish that don't have a disease. There is a significant difference between having a pathogen and having a disease. It also lines up with best practices of the FDA.
https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-info...ntimicrobial-resistance-questions-and-answers

So its possibly not a problem?

 

[Lasse]

So its possibly not a problem?

Read the thread I linked to and make your own decision. The first post and the discussion are full of information. I'm sitting on the other side of the Atlantic - I can´t see your fish, their colouration, their behaviour, their eyes and a lot of other things that I need in order to decide if treatment is necessary or not. I only can see that the fish have a white tiny poop. That´s not enough for me in order to decide if it is a disease or not and advise you to treat your fishes with antibiotics that also kill much of the anaerobic bacteria in your fish digestive tract – I´m not as skill as that. However, I have seen this rather often both in my fishes and others and never ever have treat any SW fish with metro. And I will not do it either if they eat. But you can see your fish, how they look like and so on. Get information from different sources and judge by your self with your knowledge of your own fishes.

White stringy poo is released intestinal mucus.

Yes, and it could be done of many different reasons, starvation, change in bacterial composition and much more reasons where uncontrolled growth of diplomonad flagellates is one (but that is IME always connected to not eating). Here is an article about how fast the internal microbiome composition can change according to feeding in the clown fish Premnas biaculeatus. Interesting is also that they conclude that

An ESV most closely related to the Firmicutes bacterium Clostridium perfringens dominated (>50%) the intestinal microbiomes in the unfed stages and also remained abundant after feeding. Clostridium bacteria are common in the intestine of fishes and other vertebrates, including in humans where this genus has been associated with mucus scavenging

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

So its possibly not a problem?

I would say it is possibly not a problem. I only treat if I see it persist for more than a day or two and it very rarely does ime. Of course, I have had it persist and needed to treat it also.

I'm not going to blame you or think badly of you if you decide to treat now. My comment was strictly in relation to the post I replied to.

 

[HotRocks]

I would say it is possibly not a problem. I only treat if I see it persist for more than a day or two and it very rarely does ime. Of course, I have had it persist and needed to treat it also.

I'm not going to blame you or think badly of you if you decide to treat now. My comment was strictly in relation to the post I replied to.

I treat at first sight. I have seen way too many fish stop eating and at that point it's much harder to get the meds where you need them if the fish can't eat them.

 

[Paul Sands]

White stringy poo is released intestinal mucus. A healthy fish will have intestinal parasites, just like you would not be healthy without them. You are spreading misinformation online if you are trying to convince people that widespread unregulated use of antibiotics doesn't cause issues. There is a reason that antibiotics such as metro require a prescription in large portions of the world. The science is solid that it is causing problems. In fact, the FDA was supposed to make all antibiotics in the US require a prescription starting in 2020 but that guidance was recently pulled back for further consultation.

And just to be clear, @Lasse isn't against treating sick fish. He is against treating fish that don't have a disease. There is a significant difference between having a pathogen and having a disease. It also lines up with best practices of the FDA.
https://www.fda.gov/regulatory-info...ntimicrobial-resistance-questions-and-answers

This FDA guidance doesn’t apply in this situation.

1. The FDA VOLUNTARY strategy that you linked is limited to FOOD ANIMALS. I don’t think anyone on this board is raising their tangs to fry up for dinner. It doesn’t apply at all from that perspective.
2. The FDA strategy is meant to decrease the use of medicated feed and drinking water of food animals. It’s trying to prevent farms that just medicate all their livestock continuously in order to increase growth and yields. It doesn’t apply to a pet fish that has specific symptoms.
3. The fish in question is exhibiting symptoms indicative of parasite infections. Yes it’s mucus with very little waste (poop). That generally means the fish has been fasting or it has a parasite that’s now causing a problem. A vet will treat a dog for an ear infection immediately upon symptoms. They MAY take a culture to determine if there is a better antibiotic, but they generally don’t delay treatment while they wait for the results. A hobbyist shouldn’t either.
4. Unless I’m missing something, it’s 2019, the fish likely has a parasite, and a solution is readily available at any LFS. It’s just silly to suggest that people shouldn’t treat their fish today because the FDA may make antibiotics illegal sometime in the future for farm animals.

I think both you and Lasse know that this voluntary FDA guidance doesn’t apply. I think you know that large farms continuously pumping millions of animals full of antibiotics is a little different then a handful of hobbyists treating a fish displaying symptoms.

 

[Brew12]

I treat at first sight. I have seen way too many fish stop eating and at that point it's much harder to get the meds where you need them if the fish can't eat them.

I understand that. I also know that you do it for what you believe are the right reasons. I can respect that.

The majority of the scientific community would advise against what you are doing and it isn't considered a best practice and is being actively stopped by governments because of the harm it is known to do. I have a problem with people denying that.

 

[Brew12]

This FDA guidance doesn’t apply in this situation.

1. The FDA VOLUNTARY strategy that you linked is limited to FOOD ANIMALS. I don’t think anyone on this board is raising their tangs to fry up for dinner. It doesn’t apply at all from that perspective.
2. The FDA strategy is meant to decrease the use of medicated feed and drinking water of food animals. It’s trying to prevent farms that just medicate all their livestock continuously in order to increase growth and yields. It doesn’t apply to a pet fish that has specific symptoms.
3. The fish in question is exhibiting symptoms indicative of parasite infections. Yes it’s mucus with very little waste (poop). That generally means the fish has been fasting or it has a parasite that’s now causing a problem. A vet will treat a dog for an ear infection immediately upon symptoms. They MAY take a culture to determine if there is a better antibiotic, but they generally don’t delay treatment while they wait for the results. A hobbyist shouldn’t either.
4. Unless I’m missing something, it’s 2019, the fish likely has a parasite, and a solution is readily available at any LFS. It’s just silly to suggest that people shouldn’t treat their fish today because the FDA may make antibiotics illegal sometime in the future for farm animals.

I think both you and Lasse know that this voluntary FDA guidance doesn’t apply. I think you know that large farms continuously pumping millions of animals full of antibiotics is a little different then a handful of hobbyists treating a fish displaying symptoms.

Yes, the FDA is concentrating on food animals for now. However, you also ignore this which is a general statement on prophylactic treatment. Notice it says "a veterinarian practicing judicious use" not "a farmer". And if you don't think the world is heading this way in general, try buying Metro in Canada, Germany, or Finland.

"In the case of prevention, a veterinarian practicing judicious use principles would consider relevant factors to determine the risk of a specific bacterial disease and whether it would be appropriate in a particular situation to use medically important antimicrobials for prevention purposes. For example, the veterinarian would consider the way the drug acts against the particular bacteria in question, whether it can effectively get to the place of infection, and how long the drug maintains effective levels at the site of infection.

Other important factors veterinarians consider when determining whether a particular drug is appropriate for preventive use include whether: (1) there is evidence that the drug will be effective in treating the particular disease, (2) such preventive use is consistent with accepted veterinary practice, (3) the use is intended to address particular bacteria, (4) the use is appropriately targeted to animals at risk of developing a specific disease, and (5) there are no reasonable alternatives for intervention."

 

[4FordFamily]

Since the vast majority of us aren’t taking fish to a vet, we operate within the parameters we can.

If you don’t like treating fish, don’t. If you want to cure your fish, treat them. If you think you can keep fish alive today without treatment, please tell us how you do it, and show us a repeatable way. Until then, this is what parameters we have to work with short of staffing a veterinarian office and paying exorbitant amounts per fish and the fish likely dying before we have ID’d the culprit.

 

[Lasse]

try buying Metro in Canada, Germany, or Finland

or Sweden, Norway and Denmark and many other countries. In Sweden the use of antibiotics in farms is forbidden if there is no indication of disease. Anti parasitic drugs is forbidden too if you do not have a precription from a vet.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[4FordFamily]

Also, most hobbyists don’t have labs nor the knowledge to identify things under a microscope. Short of that, we deal with what we have.

I don’t know how much experience anyone has with sending things for analysis at a lab, but people die waiting for the results, let alone the urgency for fish and limited resources for such a service.

 

[Lasse]

I think we can make a summary of the discussion:
either
shoot from the hip first - ask later. And to be sure - use the shotgun
or
ask first - choose your weapon (if needed) and use the rifle scope



Sincerely Lasse

 

[rkpetersen]

Considering that the treatment for intestinal parasites is generally much easier and safer than treating for most other diseases our fish can contract, and can even be administered in the DT, provided the fish is still eating, I will treat all of the fish in the tank with oral GC if I see this on any of them. If one fish has them, you can assume that most or all of them do, given that fish love to eat each other's waste.

 

[4FordFamily]

I think we can make a summary of the discussion:
either
shoot from the hip first - ask later. And to be sure - use the shotgun
or
ask first - choose your weapon (if needed) and use the rifle scope



Sincerely Lasse

I think more succinctly — take an educated guess, or hope the fish survives long enough to be certain before treating.

 

[Paul Sands]

Yes, the FDA is concentrating on food animals for now. However, you also ignore this which is a general statement on prophylactic treatment. Notice it says "a veterinarian practicing judicious use" not "a farmer". And if you don't think the world is heading this way in general, try buying Metro in Canada, Germany, or Finland.

"In the case of prevention, a veterinarian practicing judicious use principles would consider relevant factors to determine the risk of a specific bacterial disease and whether it would be appropriate in a particular situation to use medically important antimicrobials for prevention purposes. For example, the veterinarian would consider the way the drug acts against the particular bacteria in question, whether it can effectively get to the place of infection, and how long the drug maintains effective levels at the site of infection.

Other important factors veterinarians consider when determining whether a particular drug is appropriate for preventive use include whether: (1) there is evidence that the drug will be effective in treating the particular disease, (2) such preventive use is consistent with accepted veterinary practice, (3) the use is intended to address particular bacteria, (4) the use is appropriately targeted to animals at risk of developing a specific disease, and (5) there are no reasonable alternatives for intervention."

TREATING THE FISH IN QUESTION ISN’T A PROPHYLACTIC TREATMENT! Prophylactic means treating to prevent a disease. The fish has symptoms that generally indicate intestinal parasites that are causing identifiable symptoms and problems. Might it clear on its own? Maybe. Might the fish stop eating and die? Probably more likely.

There’s a difference between choosing not to intervene and finding reasonable alternatives for intervention. You are advocating for not intervening at all. What are your reasonable alternative treatments instead?

 

[Brew12]

Since the vast majority of us aren’t taking fish to a vet, we operate within the parameters we can.

If you don’t like treating fish, don’t. If you want to cure your fish, treat them. If you think you can keep fish alive today without treatment, please tell us how you do it, and show us a repeatable way. Until then, this is what parameters we have to work with short of staffing a veterinarian office and paying exorbitant amounts per fish and the fish likely dying before we have ID’d the culprit.

Also, most hobbyists don’t have labs nor the knowledge to identify things under a microscope. Short of that, we deal with what we have.

I don’t know how much experience anyone has with sending things for analysis at a lab, but people die waiting for the results, let alone the urgency for fish and limited resources for such a service.

Again, I respect the reasoning behind what you do. All I mean with my comment is that this practice isn't accepted by the scientific community as a best practice. It is a practice that is considered potentially dangerous/reckless which is why it is being banned in more and more countries. Unlike what was implied, what @Lasse recommends matches what is recommended by the scientific community. That comment is what I object to.

I doubt the marine fish hobby will disappear from Canada now that antibiotics are no longer OTC. It didn't disappear from Europe even though they have required a vets prescription there for many years. When they are finally banned in the US, we will need to adapt just like they did.

 

[Brew12]

THIS ISN’T A PROPHYLACTIC TREATMENT! Prophylactic means treating to prevent a disease. The fish has symptoms that generally indicate intestinal parasites that are causing identifiable symptoms and problems. Might it clear on its own? Maybe. Might the fish stop eating and die? Probably more likely.

There’s a difference between choosing not to intervene and finding reasonable alternatives for intervention. You are advocating for not intervening at all. What are your reasonable alternative treatments?

It has one symptom that could be an intestinal parasite. It's like a runny nose. It could be any number of things. I would never start pumping antibiotics into my child based on a single symptom like that. It could be that it ate a fireworm that isn't sitting well with it. Literally anything that causes irritation to the digestive system will cause stringy white poop.

Personally, I would never treat a fish with something like Metroplex or GC based on a single event. Especially knowing the damage that those drugs can do to the fishes immune system. You may be treating a non issue but opening it up to other potential infections/parasites. There are other risks in a reef tank. If a piece of medicated food falls onto a coral it can kill that coral. Binding with focus only makes it reef safe if it is consumed by the fish.

I would look for other behavioral issues such as swimming funny (hard for a clown, because they always do) or other change in behavior. Look for pinched sides. Is it hiding more? It's harder on a newly received fish but there are plenty of other symptoms to look for on an established fish and he has had it for 3 months. If the only thing that has changed is the stringy poo I would absolutely wait to treat.

You may chose not to wait, and that is your right. What isn't right is to call someone out and implying that what they are recommending is part of some crazy agenda when it is actually main stream medical opinion.

 

[HotRocks]

It has one symptom that could be an intestinal parasite. It's like a runny nose. It could be any number of things. I would never start pumping antibiotics into my child based on a single symptom like that. It could be that it ate a fireworm that isn't sitting well with it. Literally anything that causes irritation to the digestive system will cause stringy white poop.

Personally, I would never treat a fish with something like Metroplex or GC based on a single event. Especially knowing the damage that those drugs can do to the fishes immune system. You may be treating a non issue but opening it up to other potential infections/parasites. There are other risks in a reef tank. If a piece of medicated food falls onto a coral it can kill that coral. Binding with focus only makes it reef safe if it is consumed by the fish.

I would look for other behavioral issues such as swimming funny (hard for a clown, because they always do) or other change in behavior. Look for pinched sides. Is it hiding more? It's harder on a newly received fish but there are plenty of other symptoms to look for on an established fish and he has had it for 3 months. If the only thing that has changed is the stringy poo I would absolutely wait to treat.

You may chose not to wait, and that is your right. What isn't right is to call someone out and implying that what they are recommending is part of some crazy agenda when it is actually main stream medical opinion.

You do or have treated all of your fish prophylactically though correct?

 

[Lasse]

You do or have treated all of your fish prophylactically though correct?

You are right - as you can see in this article And it shows that there is a hope for everyone even for those who have sinned

Sincerely Lasse