Struggling with LED lighting

[Ron Reefman]

So maybe keep them at 80-100% and just decrease the time the whites are on? Whites are the ones putting out the big PAR numbers right? or Should I decrease the lighting for the whole fixture?

NO. PAR is mostly blue, but turn down the entire fixture some as even white light is part blue (white is made up of all colors). Google PAR and you'll find graphs that show it. Go to Apogee's website (they make PAR meters) and they have a good article by Sanjay Joshi (a lighting expert) that you will probably find very helpful.
Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Feature

 

[shred5]

Ok I try to stay out of lighting discussions because people seem to take them personally and are based on more opinion than fact and then people take it personally.. Johnanddawn are right about lighting. This whole thing "we cant ever get as much light as the sun" was started when we in this hobby were using regular fluorescent fixtures.


In the ocean the light only hits a coral on pretty much one side in the morning and the other side in the evening. For a few hours the sun is directly ahead. Plus there is reflection off the water. Par is not a issued with a good lighting system now a days . In our tanks the whole coral is lit though the whole day. Me may not be at the suns intensity but over time I think we might be.





I have been working with a few people and having discussions with a few people really knowledgeable in lighting about leds. Some like leds others don’t. I also work in the lighting industry not related to this hobby though but gives me a good understanding of lighting... But I also have been working with a lfs and have been observing another. Both switched out all their coral tanks to leds to save on energy and because they were told this is the new thing or for what ever reasons. Both have been having brown outs on some corals.


Corals have colors due to pigments and proteins. These proteins and pigments are used to manipulate light. For example if a coral may have a pigment to shade it from uv like a sunscreen. That pigment might give a coral a particular color.(if you want to see what the different pigments do read Dana Riddles articles) now what happens IF that uv light is not provided? Most likely that coral will lose that color pigment after a while.

Funny thing is some of the spectrum of light corals don't like is what gives them their color. People seem to focus on just the spectrum that chlorophyll like, not what that particular coral likes. If it was just about chlorophyll, corals would all like the same amount of light and spectrum and all grow at about the exact same depth depending on their needs.. Corals can manipulate the light to what their needs are and that is what the proteins and pigments are for.


Fact of the matter is if you use just have white and blue leds and if you use even more blue you are not giving that coral the full spectrum and they will most likely loose color pigments. This is not as much of a problem with deeper water corals but mainly shallower ones. The deeper water corals get mainly just blue light while the shallower ones get full spectrum. If you keep corals from shallower water and do not provide them full spectrum what will happen? So if you have shallower water coral providing them just blue and white leds is not the answer. Shallow water corals sometime are even out of the water getting hit with blue, yellow, green, red.


Also turn up the whites that helps with full spectrum. Leds are very narrow spectrum. People like the pop so they turn up the blues. Sure you get pop but some of your corals will brown out. That is the problem I have seen with so many corals coming form leds. One local fish store has this chalice and it glows blue with a green rim under leds and they frag this coral and have several frags of it. They light it with just blue and white leds and go very heavy blue because they like the pop. But under regular light it is brown but was but not like that before. People are real disappointed when they get this beautiful coral and get home and go omg it is just a brown coral. They have found this happening to allot of their corals. Here is the other issue, the pigments that cause the pop are slowly going away. Why is that? Well if the proper color light that causes those pigments is removed the pigments eventually go away. I took a piece of this chalice home to see if I could get the colors back. I placed it low under t-5's and the coral was brown with a little green rim. Well after a month now it is pink with a green rim and getting pinker. It originally was a water Mellon chalice. I have bought several coral recently kept under led that looked awsum only to get them home and go omg they are just brown corals. How disappointing. Sure you get pop cranking up the blues but eventually they brown if not getting the proper spectrum.


Basically if you have shallow water corals you want a full spectrum led setup and don’t go to blue. Going blue gives you pop but does not color up some corals. Par is not a issue with a good led, t-5 or halide fixture. We are actually close to photoinhibition . The hard part is people are trying to keep corals from all different reef zones which makes things even harder.


I am in the process of setting up two tanks exactly the same that will be tied together. One will be lit with t-5 and the other full spectrum leds. We will see what happens. i am going to do more testing myself but it takes months for corals to adjust so this will probably take a year or years to have the results I am looking for.

 

[jedimasterben]

I am a little late to the party, it seems


Ok, the main issue with switching to LEDs is that people use their eyes (which, frankly, suck at doing the only thing that they do, and that is see, especially when it comes to short wavelengths [below 500nm or so]) to try and match how bright their old halide or T5 fixture was. If you tried to match the brightness of a metal halide lamp, which are notorious for emitting enormous amounts of green and red in comparison to LEDs (especially the spectrally-anemic cool white LEDs you are using), the intensity of the LEDs would be orders of magnitude higher to get that same 'bright' look. The use of cyan (490nm) or green (530nm), and in some cases red (630-660nm) can help to make the light appear brighter without the added intensity (as they are not very intense), but are very overpowering when more than just a couple are present and can (and do) cast colored shadows with surface agitation. If using a proper high-CRI neutral white, the addition of green and red are really unnecessary and the light will appear plenty bright because they are not as heavy blue as cool white LEDs.

In addition to the spectra being very, very different, PAR values are not directly comparable to that of a metal halide. IE, if a coral is under 250 PAR illuminated by a 14K halide, putting it under 250 PAR provided by a mixture of blue and white LEDs that also match up to around a 14K color temp will really be more PAR than the halide, as it is not being spending so much energy in green and red, which corals are very inefficient at absorbing. Obviously halides grow corals just fine, despite significant amounts of energy being spent in those wavelengths (which actually are necessary for color rendition, aka how much light is available for our corals to reflect, if they don't receive enough light to excite their pigments, they won't show up and will look washed out or grey), but with LEDs, we can really fine-tune the growth spectrum to match what corals absorb best (428nm, 448nm, 470nm).


You mention color loss, but you didn't specify as to it being bleaching or just a loss in specific colors, such as red or orange corals (which are notorious for having poor color under cool white LEDs). From describing it, it seems like you're having corals bleach out, which means that you're giving them too much light, going back to you may have been trying to match the brightness of your previous lighting, which is a no-no with LEDs, and will certainly lead to bleaching and death of corals.

They are dimmable, so turn them down. Start at no more than 50% intensity, and leave it there for a few weeks to a month for things to start to recover (some corals may take longer than others), then increase it by 5% weekly (or every other week would be better) until you are satisfied with the amount of light, or corals begin to lighten again. In that time, I would continue to search for a PAR meter.

 

[jedimasterben]

Also turn up the whites that helps with full spectrum.

This is not particularly true of cool white LEDs, which are anemic when it comes to any spectra other than 450nm. You'll hear a lot of people that sell cool white LEDs say that they are 'full spectrum', but they are only full spectrum in the sense that they give better quality light over a parking lot where they replaced a high-pressure sodium bulb which emits almost strictly yellow light. This is what their phosphors are designed around, certainly not reefkeeping, and they do not mimic the light of the sun (which is what the term 'full spectrum' is referring to attempting).

 

[shred5]

I am a little late to the party, it seems


Ok, the main issue with switching to LEDs is that people use their eyes (which, frankly, suck at doing the only thing that they do, and that is see, especially when it comes to short wavelengths [below 500nm or so]) to try and match how bright their old halide or T5 fixture was. If you tried to match the brightness of a metal halide lamp, which are notorious for emitting enormous amounts of green and red in comparison to LEDs (especially the spectrally-anemic cool white LEDs you are using), the intensity of the LEDs would be orders of magnitude higher to get that same 'bright' look. The use of cyan (490nm) or green (530nm), and in some cases red (630-660nm) can help to make the light appear brighter without the added intensity (as they are not very intense), but are very overpowering when more than just a couple are present and can (and do) cast colored shadows with surface agitation. If using a proper high-CRI neutral white, the addition of green and red are really unnecessary and the light will appear plenty bright because they are not as heavy blue as cool white LEDs.

In addition to the spectra being very, very different, PAR values are not directly comparable to that of a metal halide. IE, if a coral is under 250 PAR illuminated by a 14K halide, putting it under 250 PAR provided by a mixture of blue and white LEDs that also match up to around a 14K color temp will really be more PAR than the halide, as it is not being spending so much energy in green and red, which corals are very inefficient at absorbing. Obviously halides grow corals just fine, despite significant amounts of energy being spent in those wavelengths (which actually are necessary for color rendition, aka how much light is available for our corals to reflect, if they don't receive enough light to excite their pigments, they won't show up and will look washed out or grey), but with LEDs, we can really fine-tune the growth spectrum to match what corals absorb best (428nm, 448nm, 470nm).


You mention color loss, but you didn't specify as to it being bleaching or just a loss in specific colors, such as red or orange corals (which are notorious for having poor color under cool white LEDs). From describing it, it seems like you're having corals bleach out, which means that you're giving them too much light, going back to you may have been trying to match the brightness of your previous lighting, which is a no-no with LEDs, and will certainly lead to bleaching and death of corals.

They are dimmable, so turn them down. Start at no more than 50% intensity, and leave it there for a few weeks to a month for things to start to recover (some corals may take longer than others), then increase it by 5% weekly (or every other week would be better) until you are satisfied with the amount of light, or corals begin to lighten again. In that time, I would continue to search for a PAR meter.

While I agree with lots of what you said there are something I would add for feel different about.

One reasons halides seem brighter is they spread the light out more, ie waste allot of light bouncing around the room and more light hitting your eyes.. Also corals don't see brightness, brightness is just for human eyes and what we see as being bright does not necessarily correlate to the corals and I think you mentioned that is some way..

t-5 always seemed dimmer because they waste less light and leds are even better at not wasting light. Better reflectors.

Par meters do not read well in the blue range, So par on leds is probably higher than what is measured on leds since the fixtures usually have more blue.

Your post seems to focus mainly on par and you think is good not having other colors outside the spectrum that par lays in... I disagree because I feel some corals it is need for coloration, Maybe not important for growth or how healthy a coral is. I think we have planty of par and need to stop focusing on that so much as spectrum for color. Again read my post above because I don't want to repeat myself.

 

[Ajsvmax]

I have virtually the same setup you have on a 90 gallon. I even added almost the same amount of extra LEDs (I added 8 extra.). I have my blues and mixed channels at 100%, but the whites are at 50%. I was going to increase slowly, but everything seems fine, so I never did

Drew

 

[jedimasterben]

While I agree with lots of what you said there are something I would add for feel different about.

One reasons halides seem brighter is they spread the light out more, ie waste allot of light bouncing around the room and more light hitting your eyes.. Also corals don't see brightness, brightness is just for human eyes and what we see as being bright does not necessarily correlate to the corals and I think you mentioned that is some way..

t-5 always seemed dimmer because they waste less light and leds are even better at not wasting light.

T5 lighting is just as bright unless you are using all 'actinic' bulbs, anything that is heaviest in blue spectrum, again where our eyes suck at seeing.

You are correct in that corals are not fooled by brightness or how the light looks - they cannot be fooled with spectrum and intensity, two things that they need from the light they get (and specifically tilted toward more blue light in the 420-450nm range).

Par meters do not read well in the blue range, So par on leds is probalby higher than what is measured on leds since over halides since they usually have far more blue..

Which should be taken into account already. Add 40% at 430nm, 20% at 450nm, 10% at 470nm if using an Apogee PAR meter. That is in addition to having no energy wasted elsewhere, keeping it all to a very narrow spectrum, so it is easier to calculate the PAR and figure out how much

Your post seems to focus mainly on par and you think is good not having other colors outside the spectrum that par lays in... I disagree with some corals it is need for coloration, Maybe not important for growth or how healthy a coral is. I think we have planty of par and need to stop focusing on that so much as spectrum for color. Again read my post above because I don't want to repeat myself.

You must not have read any other posts by me that slam the use of cool whites for being spectrally anemic Not once have I suggested to use as little spectrum as possible. You'll find plenty of that in commercial fixtures still being sold that have terrible color (AI, Ecotech, Kessil, Orphek, to name a few), despite some adding a slew of colors to give their try at 'full spectrum', aka more money in their pockets because people don't know what full spectrum actually is and don't have time to sort through all the marketing BS to figure out what they really need.

The arrays that I have come to know that have the best non-fluorescent coloration (aka colors that look grey or black when under blue light) all have one thing in common - they're based around a high-CRI, 4000-4500K neutral white. Not one of them uses cool white. Any red corals they put under their lights look like they're on fire, whereas under a cool-white array, they will look muddled and usually turn orange instead of red.

 

[HWDylan]

Thanks for the info. I turned both channels down to around 50% and I decreased the period that the whites are on to only 5 hours.

I am not sure if it is bleaching persay.. it is just that the corals look great at the store and then after a week in my tank lose their color to a more faded version of what they were. Example: I bought a really pretty dark green/blue deepwater acro and after about a week in my tank it now looks like kind of mint green. Maybe that is bleaching, I am not really experienced with bleaching corals.

Also another note. This is my first tank (~7mo old) and I started with LEDs so I have no frame of refrence as to how bright they should be other than the LFS and like I said they run the radions at 100% for around 4 hours a day.

I am hoping this decrease in light helps turn things around.

 

[jedimasterben]

If they're fading in color, typically that is bleaching.

 

[HWDylan]

Another question.

My UV, reds, reg blues, and greens are on a non dimmable channel. Should I just decrease the time they are on? There are a lot fewer of them (2 reds, 2 greens, 8 UV, and 4 blues) than the whites and royal blues.

 

[jedimasterben]

I wouldn't run the green and red at all, but with cool white you need all the help they can get. You can leave them on normal length of time (even the white LEDs), keeping the main LEDs reduced in intensity is really all you need to do.

 

[Dana]

LEDs for me were deceiving. I was used to a super bright tank under my cfl bulbs.
Then I got an in expensive led with mostly 10000k LEDs. It looked exactly the same as my cfl.
When I got a nice led, even on its highest setting, it didn't look nearly as bright as my other lights, but I realize trying to get that 10000k look back, just wasn't gonna happen with this unit.
I could swap the 6500 for all10000, but I think the tank likes the mostly blue LEDs.

 

[HWDylan]

I added the red LEDs more for making certain colors pop rather than any actual benefit. From what I understand the red spectrum penetrates very little into the water and doesn't do much for coral anyway.

 

[shred5]

I added the red LEDs more for making certain colors pop rather than any actual benefit. From what I understand the red spectrum penetrates very little into the water and doesn't do much for coral anyway.

Red spectrum seems to me to color up some sps's. Even though corals don't need red or even like that color they seem to produce pigments under red spectrum. Could be the pigments are produced to block or change the color of red spectrum.

 

[Ron Reefman]

Red spectrum seems to me to color up some sps's. Even though corals don't need red or even like that color they seem to produce pigments under red spectrum. Could be the pigments are produced to block or change the color of red spectrum.

I don't want to say you are wrong, but I seem to remember having read in a number of articles (not forum posts or blogs) about some red being used by coral and their zooxanthellae. Not nearly as much as blue but more than any other color. You might try reading this basic article by Sanjay Joshi who is a professor at Penn State and a regular speaker at MACNA.
Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Feature

 

[jt17]

For longevity of your LEDs it is better to run more at a lower level than fewer at higher levels. Heat will reduce the life of your LEDs so if you need to run them at 100% to achieve the desired look or to get the best growth then you should have more LEDs. This is why many manufacturers are using 3 watt instead of 5 watt LEDs, less heat.
I have reds and uv on my vertex illumina (3 watt leds) and am very pleased with the coloration of my corals. I don't run any of the channels above 50% and I still get good growth and color on my SPS. I added reds to my fixture cause i was a noob and wanted it all, but you don't NEED to add red LEDs cause there's enough red in the white LEDs to satisfy any need the corals may have in that range of the spectrum. I still use them because I like the sunrises and sunset

 

[shred5]

I don't want to say you are wrong, but I seem to remember having read in a number of articles (not forum posts or blogs) about some red being used by coral and their zooxanthellae. Not nearly as much as blue but more than any other color. You might try reading this basic article by Sanjay Joshi who is a professor at Penn State and a regular speaker at MACNA.
Aquarium Frontiers On-Line: Feature

I know Sanjay personally, I have met him lots of times.. Personally Dana Riddle is who I think is the most knowledgeable person in this hobby when it comes to lighting and spectrum and how they affect corals. Sanjay knows lighting and Dana knows proteins and pigments. It is not a cut on Sanjay they are two different areas of expertise.

Dana did a full article on red spectrum which I cant seem to find at the moment or have time search for because I am at work. It should be in his series in advanced reefkeeping.

but in this article he talks about it.:

Feature Article: The Best Lamp Is... ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog

In light of the evidence, should we really be surprised that red light can possibly be detrimental to at least some corals' zooxanthellae? Just a quick look at Figure 8 confirms that many corals are found in environments deficient in red light. 'Strong' red light is unnatural and seems to be a factor in regulating zooxanthellae density and/or pigment content.

If you read it more he talks more about it.

When we first started using t-5 lighting we had similar issues people are seeing with leds where corals bleached or lost color. Then lamps red and purple lamps came out that had red in them and things got better. For t-5 I also use GE 6500 lamp to get full spectrum and that switch made a huge difference too.. At first t-5 lamps where either blue or white.

Yes there is red light in white I agree.
My whole major point is people are using way too much blue with leds and that is why they are losing their color. They like the pop. I am not saying anything is wrong with leds. Just a reminder I am talking corals from shallower water where these corals have adapted to a more full spectrum. I am not talking about corals that are used to mainly blue. I believe allot of the morphs we see are deeper water corals be subjected too wider spectrum than they are used to and adapting.

You also have to look at different corals different, some rely heavily on their zooxanthellae and other don't. There is more to light than just what chlorophyll needs when it comes to corals because corals can manipulate light to some extent. ..

 

[greg 45]

I wanted to chime in here a while ago but always get kicked to the curb. I originally purchased Pacific Sun leds, all they did was light up the house and not the tank. After talking to Ron about par I called Fathom led to come over and help with my lighting. The par and spectrum on the pacific suns are terrible. After purchasing the Fathom Hydra series the light was able to increase par and light the anemones in my system not the house. I do disagree with rom on the apogee par meter to x 40 % If I remember on apogee meter there isn't that much % difference will reference that later tonight.

 

[shred5]

Apogee Instruments Quantum Sensor Technical Information

Apogee admits they are off... It just depends where you are in the spectrum on how much:

The spectral response of the Apogee Sensor used in Quantum Meters and the Quantum Sensor is shown at right. As the figure indicates, the sensor underestimates the 400 to 500 nm wavelengths (blue light), overestimates the 550-650 wavelengths (yellow and orange light), and has little sensitivity above 650 nm (red light). Fortunately, common light sources are mixtures of colors and the spectral errors offset each other. The sensor measures green light (500-550 nm) accurately, so it can be used to measure the radiation inside and at the bottom of plant canopies.

 

[jedimasterben]

I wanted to chime in here a while ago but always get kicked to the curb. I originally purchased Pacific Sun leds, all they did was light up the house and not the tank. After talking to Ron about par I called Fathom led to come over and help with my lighting. The par and spectrum on the pacific suns are terrible. After purchasing the Fathom Hydra series the light was able to increase par and light the anemones in my system not the house. I do disagree with rom on the apogee par meter to x 40 % If I remember on apogee meter there isn't that much % difference will reference that later tonight.

None of the Pacific Sun series have lenses, and are only suitable for shallow tanks because of that.

LEDs for me were deceiving. I was used to a super bright tank under my cfl bulbs.
Then I got an in expensive led with mostly 10000k LEDs. It looked exactly the same as my cfl.
When I got a nice led, even on its highest setting, it didn't look nearly as bright as my other lights, but I realize trying to get that 10000k look back, just wasn't gonna happen with this unit.
I could swap the 6500 for all10000, but I think the tank likes the mostly blue LEDs.

Well of course - corals are extremely efficient in collecting energy from blue light. The caveat is that if you use nearly all blue in your fixture, you will lose just about every non-fluorescent color, where they will look muddled or 'actinic grey'.

I added the red LEDs more for making certain colors pop rather than any actual benefit. From what I understand the red spectrum penetrates very little into the water and doesn't do much for coral anyway.

Warm white LEDs do a far better job and blend so much better than red LEDs do. Red spectrum penetrates 15-20 feet or so.

Red spectrum seems to me to color up some sps's. Even though corals don't need red or even like that color they seem to produce pigments under red spectrum. Could be the pigments are produced to block or change the color of red spectrum.

Corals are simply less efficient at absorbing red light, but can use it just the same as long as there is enough of it (within reason) - hence why corals still grow under lights like the 6500K Iwasaki.

For longevity of your LEDs it is better to run more at a lower level than fewer at higher levels. Heat will reduce the life of your LEDs so if you need to run them at 100% to achieve the desired look or to get the best growth then you should have more LEDs. This is why many manufacturers are using 3 watt instead of 5 watt LEDs, less heat.

Keep in mind that all LEDs out there have their L70 ratings (time until the LED reaches 70% of the initial output) tested at 350mA and 85-135 degrees Celsius. Unless you are running passively cooled (which you should never, realistically), the LEDs will very, very rarely reach over 50 degrees Celsius, more like 40-45 degrees. As long as you keep them cool, you can run them at just about any current. An XM-L LED from Cree has a maximum current rating of 3A - mounted to a copper MCPCB and on a good quality heatsink with good contact, they can be run at over 6A without reaching their thermal threshold.

I have reds and uv on my vertex illumina (3 watt leds) and am very pleased with the coloration of my corals. I don't run any of the channels above 50% and I still get good growth and color on my SPS. I added reds to my fixture cause i was a noob and wanted it all, but you don't NEED to add red LEDs cause there's enough red in the white LEDs to satisfy any need the corals may have in that range of the spectrum. I still use them because I like the sunrises and sunset

Most of the '5 watt' LEDs you see out there are only 5 watts if they are run at 1500mA, which is pushing them very hard and they lose efficiency VERY quickly once you get over 1000mA, which is 3 watts. At that point, it takes more and more cooling to keep them from blowing, in addition to having less output than having more LEDs to match the same power profile. You'll also not easily find LED drivers that will push them to that current, most top out at 700mA or 1300mA.

1000mA is really all I recommend for XT-E and Rebel ES. Keeps them super cool and they still have high output (~300lm for white, ~1600mW for RB).

There is NOT enough red in all white LEDs. White LEDs are NOT created equally! Cool white are anemic in anything other than blue, and have poor color rendition, especially with reds on LPS corals.

My whole major point is people are using way too much blue with leds and that is why they are losing their color. They like the pop.

This, this, and more this! People think that fluorescence is all there is to 'great color', but it's simply not!