Sump in separate room: need plumbing help/advice

[J Crew]

Hello, I’m coming back to the hobby after a 20 year absence. A lot has changed! Haha.

I’m picking up a used Waterbox package (Reef 130.4) with stand, sump, LR, and various equipment like lights, pumps, and skimmer.

This tank will be for my office and I will not be with it everyday, so I want to automate as much as I can. Luckily, I also have a small shower room that is unused and that I can use for an equipment/tank room. This room is approx 12 feet away, with a necessary 8-10 feet run up the wall into the attic and then 6 feet down to the countertop of the equipment room.

I need help planning the basics of my plumbing. I can get into bulkheads and quick disconnects and all that details once I get some advice on basic layout and functionality first.

Here are my thoughts as I’m typing this
I use the current Waterbox sump for additional water volume, but I plump out of this sump and then over to the equipment room into a larger sump where Incan run all of my equipment. The sump being considered is the Trigger Systems Platinum Sump 39. This should give me all the room I need to place my equipment, and also easily try different equipment out as I get curious or new techniques emerge.

• First, is this a sound idea?
• Second, what basic equipment and materials will I need to move water from the sump under the tank to the larger sump in the equipment room and then back?
• Third, am I up against flow issues and will this be hard to calibrate the flow?

Thank you for your time and help. I’m sorry if I’m asking very basic questions or if I’m asking something without providing enough info. I’m just trying to get my head wrapped around everything and am trying to cut down on my learning curve by asking for advice from the amazing Reefer community. If you need more info to answer my questions then let me know and I’ll try to provide it. Thank you again! - Jason

 

[ReefEco]

Hey there, welcome back to reefing : ) As you allude, the main concern with operating two sumps that aren't gravity draining into each other (if I'm understanding your setup correctly - you'd pump water from sump one, to remote sump, then back to display) - is matching pump rates so everything stays in equilibrium. So if you have one pump going from one sump to remote sump, the return pump would have to be perfectly (i.e. impossible) tuned to the pump rate of the first pump, in order to keep your sump levels consistent. If your first sump is lower than the remote sump, there is no real way to do this via gravity and one pump. It also sounds like you can't drain your display into your remote pump directly. I've never tried this, but I would guess it would be basically impossible to equalize all the flow rates accurately so things like ATO's and evaporation rates are stable. It would be something I would always worry about, especially if this setup is not in your home and you are away from it. I suppose you could use a series of float switches, but I wouldn't try that - too many points of failure. If I were you, I would simply try to get the display to gravity drain into your remote sump room - if that is possible. I have a two-tiered sump system in my fishroom (you can view videos of my setup via the link in my sig), but they gravity drain into eachother.

 

[J Crew]

Yes, what you’re describing was/is my concern. To clarify, my thought was the main tank would gravity drain into sump 1, then pump up and over to sump 2, the return pump back to sump 1, where sump 1 would return pump back to the main tank.

I was hoping there was some way of synchronizing pumps or flow somehow. Or that my fear of flow was unfounded.

Unfortunately there is a block wall filled with concrete between the space and the room is not adjacent, so no shared walls. This makes it impossible to grab it feed from the main tank to the remote sump.

Fingers crossed still that there’s a way

 

[Spicy Reef]

I would be inclined to use the existing sump for both tanks, or no sump at all for the new one.

 

[J Crew]

@Spicy Reef
When you say the existing sump for both, can you detail out what that looks like? I think that what I want to do, but am unsure. Thanks.

 

[Spicy Reef]

@Spicy Reef
When you say the existing sump for both, can you detail out what that looks like? I think that what I want to do, but am unsure. Thanks.

Actually, it might be my old brain that needs a better grasp on your setup
After re re re reading ur post you only have one tank but want two sumps for it?

 

[J Crew]

Actually, it might be my old brain that needs a better grasp on your setup
After re re re reading ur post you only have one tank but want two sumps for it?

Haha, I’m there with you!

Yes, main tank gravity feeds to sump 1, sump one (below main tank) returns back to main tank.

In between this flow, I would like to pump water to a remote sump 2 (that is larger) and then return pump out of sump 2 and back to sump 1.

Hopefully my description makes sense.

 

[Spicy Reef]

Haha, I’m there with you!

Yes, main tank gravity feeds to sump 1, sump one (below main tank) returns back to main tank.

In between this flow, I would like to pump water to a remote sump 2 (that is larger) and then return pump out of sump 2 and back to sump 1.

Hopefully my description makes sense.

And the display tank can not drain (gravity) directly to the equipment room? which would allow you to get away with one sump?
Or does the equipment room not have water? you could just add an ro line from shower room to equipment room. Other than water volume my brain can't get to why you might want two sumps...

 

[cilyjr]

Getting both tanks to be pumped identically will be near impossible. You won't just be dealing with pump rates you will have to calculate head loss, pipe volume, plumbing restrictions like ball valves. Ect.

Your best bet might to be take the lowest tank and run two pumps to each remote system (it does not matter what each tank does. One can be the display one can be the equipment room. Water only cares about which is the lowest tank in the system) then have each remote system drain back to the lowest tank via gravity.
I hope that makes sense

 

[J Crew]

And the display tank can not drain (gravity) directly to the equipment room? which would allow you to get away with one sump?
Or does the equipment room not have water? you could just add an ro line from shower room to equipment room. Other than water volume my brain can't get to why you might want two sumps...

The equipment room is diagonal and two rooms away from where the display (main) tank will be. There is a block filled concrete wall as well that we cannot run plumping in. Unfortunately, this is the reason I cannot gravity feed to that sump.

 

[cilyjr]

The other thought would be to have only one pump which would pump from your lowest tank up to your highest tank, then gravity feed to your next lowest and then gravity drain into the absolute lowest.
In this scenario you will be using only one pump. I do not know if that is possible you have not provided a schematic drawing of the idea you are proposing.

 

[J Crew]

Would something like this, to control the flow of the pumps, not work?
Flow Sensor

@cilyjr unfortunately that would require plumbing into the same concrete wall that prohibits us from just using a gravity feed to the one remote sump to begin with.

 

[cilyjr]

Would something like this, to control the flow of the pumps, not work?
Flow Sensor

@cilyjr unfortunately that would require plumbing into the same concrete wall that prohibits us from just using a gravity feed to the one remote sump to begin with.

Probably not. That'll give you a reading for what each is doing. It basically just uses a little impeller inside (which by the way would be an added restriction) to give you a rough number I use a lab grade water column meter on my calcium reactor and even I find that to be slightly inaccurate.

Consider the fact that even if you were able to get it perfect which would require a bunch of engineering algeal growth and things like vermitid snails growing in the pipes will produce inaccuracies over time.

Unfortunately, If what you were proposing were simple, more people would be doing it.

 

[J Crew]

I pretty much knew it was a long shot, but I wanted to get this out just in case.

My other option is to use the equipment room for rodi, waste water drain, and saltwater mixing for automatic water changes and ATO storage.

Then build a custom stand in the office that has a larger foot print so I can use a larger sump and accomplish everything that I want.

That option is now on the table I suppose.

 

[cilyjr]

I hear ya. I have to sign multiple systems with remote filtration equipment. I do not like working underneath the display.
The house that I live in now required me to build a shed to house my equipment. I don't know if that is an option for you.
I live in a place in California that is 70° all year.

By the way boring through a concrete wall is not that difficult if you are mechanically inclined. You can rent a boring machine from any local tool rental shop. Just make sure they give you a bit that isn't 25 years old. LOL.

 

[J Crew]

Do you think that divider partition is load bearing on the Reef 130.4 stand? (picture for reference below; not my actual tank)

If it's not load bearing, then I could remove that divider which would allow me to fit the size sump that I'm wanting.

Thoughts?

@Spicy Reef
@cilyjr
@ReefEco

​

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

Do you think that divider partition is load bearing on the Reef 130.4 stand? (picture for reference below; not my actual tank)

If it's not load bearing, then I could remove that divider which would allow me to fit the size sump that I'm wanting.

Thoughts?

@Spicy Reef
@cilyjr
@ReefEco

​

After all of the issues that Red Sea had with center sag and leaks, I personally would not choose to remove that center divider if it's even a question. You could Notch out the center, leaving 2" up front and back.

Not sure if the sump would fit there, but in all honesty, I don't see any way it would be possible to run the two sumps how you originally planned without a massive reservoir and constant adjustment.

 

[cilyjr]

I would be surprised if you just go bearing being that it is off center. That said, I have no idea.
I have no experience with red sea or any manufactured stands for that matter as I have always built My own if others are suggesting it may be then do not move it.

You could Notch out the center, leaving 2" up front and back.

You could try this.

 

[ReefEco]

Hey Jcrew, I think you are hearing that the matching of pump rates in what you propose is nearly impossible and fraught with risk. Bummer that the concrete wall is impenetrable. If you really were determined to use extra water volume in the remote sump, you could set it up as a separate large water volume, and in essence do a water exchange say once or twice a day (or continuous) with your sump below the tank, exchanging all the water volume in the sump each time (just make sure the incoming water from the remote sump is downstream from the water you are pumping out to glean the most benefits) You'd have to use calibrated dosers though, and you still might run into some issues with evaporation (you'd have to have a separate ATO system on both the main sump, and remote sump). While likely achievable, I'm not sure it is worth it... but reefers have certainly done crazier stuff : )