Sump layout - high school chemistry endeavor

[Ross Petersen]

Hi there. I'm a high school chemistry/environmental science teacher designing a custom sump. Keen to get your thoughts on sump layout. I'm looking at using a roller filter, skimmer, and refugium.

Currently thinking: drain --> roller filter --> skimmer --> refugium --> return

Many others are indicating: drain --> roller filter --> refugium --> skimmer --> return

I like the idea of having the refugium last as the skimmer can provide ample aeration to it. And any copepods and small organics/sugars from the refugium can pass into the tank without being filtered out.

Your thoughts?

 

[lapin]

Great idea and environmentally thought out

 

[link81]

another thought is to make the refugium a totally separate path.
so the drain splits, part goes to fuge, part goes to filter.
the fuge section just returns right to the return pump chamber, and the filter section goes to the skimmer section, then onto the return section.
one biological path, and one mechanical path.

 

[Potatohead]

One big chamber for filter roller and skimmer. Next chamber, water flows under baffle (leave an inch off the bottom) into refugium. Next baffle sets the height of the water in the first two chambers, then immediately (maybe 1" between) another baffle the water goes under again into the return chamber. This is will act as a final bubble trap and also provide a place of decent flow to dose into or whatever.

Skimmer after fuge IME is a disaster, skimmer pump constantly gets full of macro.

I hope you like my amazing Paint skills:

 

[KrisReef]

I think the suggestions above captured some good ideas @link81 and demonstrated some excellent @Potatohead paint skills to boot!

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

 

[Ross Petersen]

One big chamber for filter roller and skimmer. Next chamber, water flows under baffle (leave an inch off the bottom) into refugium. Next baffle sets the height of the water in the first two chambers, then immediately (maybe 1" between) another baffle the water goes under again into the return chamber. This is will act as a final bubble trap and also provide a place of decent flow to dose into or whatever.

Skimmer after fuge IME is a disaster, skimmer pump constantly gets full of macro.

I hope you like my amazing Paint skills:

I really appreciate this level of detail.

That was my impression of having the skimmer after the refugium as well.

Question: If the first baffle is raised, will organics flow from the refugium back into the skimmer and roller filter and clog the roller filter quickly / lead to excess skimmate do you think? Maybe drop the first baffle and add another after it so it's more 1-way flow? Speaking out loud here...

Question: Do you think the roller filter and skimmer would filter out too much nutrient and starve the chaeto/producers in the refugium?

Thanks

 

[Potatohead]

I really appreciate this level of detail.

That was my impression of having the skimmer after the refugium as well.

Question: If the first baffle is raised, will organics flow from the refugium back into the skimmer and roller filter and clog the roller filter quickly / lead to excess skimmate do you think? Maybe drop the first baffle and add another after it so it's more 1-way flow? Speaking out loud here...

Question: Do you think the roller filter and skimmer would filter out too much nutrient and starve the chaeto/producers in the refugium?

Thanks

I have the Bubble Magus roller and unless the others use a very different design, there's no real way for detritus to get back into the roll once it's out. Water drains into the middle, flows through the paper, and out into the sump. I do get some detritus in my sump but since installing the roller it is cut by at least 80%, probably more.

I do get some detritus in my skimmer but it is very minimal. Minimal to the point I haven't cleaned the body/pump in at least four months, maybe longer. You could absolutely set up the first baffle area just like the second, just make sure the "upstream baffle" (closest to the skimmer) is not taller than the second "upstream baffle" after the fuge. Also I should have mentioned before I run my return chamber water about 1/2" lower than the fuge baffle height, which keeps it nice and quiet.

Will it starve it, it's hard to say, really depends on tank. My chaeto grows like mad. I would say in the beginning, no, but after a couple years when you start to get some real coral mass, you might want to cut it back. Easiest thing is to reduce fuge photoperiod and go from there.

 

[joseserrano]

id do as the many others suggested.

 

[Ross Petersen]

Here's where I'm at... contemplating dropping either the roller filter (takes up a lot of space) or the refugium. Want both though. The downside of this setup is there's no space (horizontally anyway) for electrical. I like how Red Sea has a dry compartment, for example. Thoughts/criticisms of this layout?!

 

[Ross Petersen]

I have the Bubble Magus roller and unless the others use a very different design, there's no real way for detritus to get back into the roll once it's out. Water drains into the middle, flows through the paper, and out into the sump. I do get some detritus in my sump but since installing the roller it is cut by at least 80%, probably more.

I do get some detritus in my skimmer but it is very minimal. Minimal to the point I haven't cleaned the body/pump in at least four months, maybe longer. You could absolutely set up the first baffle area just like the second, just make sure the "upstream baffle" (closest to the skimmer) is not taller than the second "upstream baffle" after the fuge. Also I should have mentioned before I run my return chamber water about 1/2" lower than the fuge baffle height, which keeps it nice and quiet.

Will it starve it, it's hard to say, really depends on tank. My chaeto grows like mad. I would say in the beginning, no, but after a couple years when you start to get some real coral mass, you might want to cut it back. Easiest thing is to reduce fuge photoperiod and go from there.

Do you happen to work at a reef store locally in Vancouver 'potato head'? You sound like you've been in the reef game for some time. Shoot me an email if that's easier: [email protected]

 

[link81]

Here's where I'm at... contemplating dropping either the roller filter (takes up a lot of space) or the refugium. Want both though. The downside of this setup is there's no space (horizontally anyway) for electrical. I like how Red Sea has a dry compartment, for example. Thoughts/criticisms of this layout?!

I would swap the fuge and the skimmer personally. no sense in skimming out any pods

 

[Ross Petersen]

I would swap the fuge and the skimmer personally. no sense in skimming out any pods

Yeah, I like having the refugium last as well to ensure those pods enter the aquarium.

With that said, some are saying the pump could get clogged up with refugium detritus... and there may not be enough nutrients moving into the refugium after the skimmer and roller filter has removed most of them.

Red sea tanks have filter socks --> refugium --> skimmer... they must have debated this one...

Anyone other thoughts?!

 

[link81]

I just run some plastic canvas at the outlet of the fuge. Keeps all the chaeto shreds in the fuge, and lets the pods and stuff through.
Easy enough to put the skimmer on a timer if it’s pulling too much out. Let the fuge do the heavy lifting, and only use the skimmer if needed.


Plastic Canvas 12x18-Clear https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DEGKMO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JpukDbYVPRRBN

 

[Ross Petersen]

I just run some plastic canvas at the outlet of the fuge. Keeps all the chaeto shreds in the fuge, and lets the pods and stuff through.
Easy enough to put the skimmer on a timer if it’s pulling too much out. Let the fuge do the heavy lifting, and only use the skimmer if needed.


Plastic Canvas 12x18-Clear https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001DEGKMO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_JpukDbYVPRRBN

I like it! You've convinced me (I think) to go bold and go with my science gut on this one - refugium last

 

[Potatohead]

I don’t work at a reef store no, but I am a regular at the one in Coquitlam, if you’re familiar.

FWIW, on the BM roller filter you can feed the drain and put the motor on either side, or both on the same side. All the pictures show them on opposite sides, but it’s about 4” narrower if you put them both on the same side. I’ve been running mine that way now for about seven months.

Also, if you are going to run skimmer first, you don’t really need a baffle to separate the skimmer and filter. I mean you can for sure, but it may free up some room to not have it and allows flexibility on placement or skimmer size. I have both mine in one compartment sitting one in front of the other.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I don’t work at a reef store no, but I am a regular at the one in Coquitlam, if you’re familiar.

FWIW, on the BM roller filter you can feed the drain and put the motor on either side, or both on the same side. All the pictures show them on opposite sides, but it’s about 4” narrower if you put them both on the same side. I’ve been running mine that way now for about seven months.

Also, if you are going to run skimmer first, you don’t really need a baffle to separate the skimmer and filter. I mean you can for sure, but it may free up some room to not have it and allows flexibility on placement or skimmer size. I have both mine in one compartment sitting one in front of the other.

J & L sometimes. More frequently in the future for sure when this tank gets going.

Glad you mentioned the BM roller filter is a bit flexible spacing wise. That was one of my concerns.

My updated design looks something like this. I think going custom (Concept Aquariums in Calgary, for example) is better than Red Sea in that I don't have to cut out the filter sock section, the ATO is way larger, euro-bracing is nice for splash, and the stand is metal. Granted, Red Sea setups looks pretty awesome.

Again, I appreciate the insights. Thx

 

[Ross Petersen]

Would you gents put the RO water under the stand (as is planned at present, connected to the sump, blue box) or outside the stand and make room for electrical under the stand? I could design the stand in such a way that the sump is separate from the control panels under it (as per Red Sea, for example)

Trying to get a meta sense for cable organization before delving into that roller coaster...

 

[Matt Carden]

There are plenty of reefers out there eliminating the skimmer.

 

[Ross Petersen]

There are plenty of reefers out there eliminating the skimmer.

That's crossed my mind for sure. Money savings - and I don't see it as essential if there's great flow in the tank.

Refugiums are very cool scientifically and make sense from an ecosystem standpoint. I don't love the scattering of light and excess algae in the sump they can create - so might go for an algae turf scrubber at some point. TBD.

At this point - I see the roller filter as the only must-have component. Clear water and automation of a redundant task.

Thanks for the insights. Keeps me thinking.

 

[link81]

personally, i would keep the skimmer chamber even if you don't run one right away, can always use it as a second fuge for the time being. Then it's trivial to add one later if you go that route. I run both a skimmer and a Fuge.
My top off water is in the basement next to my RO unit. I have a peristaltic pump that i use to pump top off water to the display. Frees up more room in the stand.