Sump overflow/power failure?

[jazzmik]

Let me see if I can make sense here...

Red Sea Reefer 450 with custom manifold, 3 gate valves for 2 reactors and uv sterilizer. Here's an old pic of when I was first setting up:

The question/problem:

Until recently I wasn't using the reactors so all 3 valves were closed. Water level in the return section is kept around 6-7 inches (the left return section baffle is roughly 9 inches).

This worked perfectly when doing water changes... turn the main pump off and sump would fill up to around 3 inches or so below top of sump rim. Been doing this for most of year no issues.

Now... all 3 valves opened and in use, turn the main pump off and sump filled complete to rim and would have kept going if I didn't get pump running again real quick.

How can water still be filling the sump with the pump off? Water still flowing through the UV/reactors.

If I close all 3 valves first, turn main pump off, no issues. Now has me worried about a power failure if I'm not home.

Advice?

 

[nautical_nathaniel]

I'm not super experienced with sump plumbing since I don't actually have a sump, but wouldn't utilizing those other lines add more potential water volume to the sump area of the tank and thus cause overflow issues in the event the pump is turned off due to the extra volume draining into the sump? If the gate valves are close, then the water doesn't accumulate in those lines and also doesn't drain into the tank when the pump shuts off. I work for a Sewer utility authority and we deal with this sometimes when adding new lines uphill of certain facilities.

 

[keddre]

utilizing those other lines add more potential water volume to the sump area of the tank and thus cause overflow issues in the event the pump is turned off due to the extra volume draining into the sump

This +1

 

[jazzmik]

I'm not super experienced with sump plumbing since I don't actually have a sump, but wouldn't utilizing those other lines add more potential water volume to the sump area of the tank and thus cause overflow issues in the event the pump is turned off due to the extra volume draining into the sump? If the gate valves are close, then the water doesn't accumulate in those lines and also doesn't drain into the tank when the pump shuts off. I work for a Sewer utility authority and we deal with this sometimes when adding new lines uphill of certain facilities.

Not sure. The reactors don't empty/drain out, they remain full. The leftmost valve I have the UV on and the water keeps flowing at the output.

Maybe I have to get a bucket and bale some water out for longer to see it it stops at some point. Problem is if it does then can I get the correct water level with everything running? Will have to test it out tonight.

 

[keddre]

Not sure. The reactors don't empty/drain out, they remain full. The leftmost valve I have the UV on and the water keeps flowing at the output.

Maybe I have to get a bucket and bale some water out for longer to see it it stops at some point. Problem is if it does then can I get the correct water level with everything running? Will have to test it out tonight.

The actual reactors won't empty out but the water stored in the pvc lines will.

 

[dbl]

How deep are your return nozzles in the display? Trying raising them (if not already) to the point where the tips are just under the water. That way, when pump power is lost, the siphon will occur very quickly and should help with the amount of water back-flowing in to the sump.

 

[Dhoggs]

How deep are your return nozzles in the display? Trying raising them (if not already) to the point where the tips are just under the water. That way, when pump power is lost, the siphon will occur very quickly and should help with the amount of water back-flowing in to the sump.

+1

 

[jd371]

How deep are your return nozzles in the display? Trying raising them (if not already) to the point where the tips are just under the water. That way, when pump power is lost, the siphon will occur very quickly and should help with the amount of water back-flowing in to the sump.

My thinking exactly. I also drilled a hole close to the surface on the return to stop the siphon quickly, my sump only gets half full when the pump is shut off.

 

[jazzmik]

How deep are your return nozzles in the display? Trying raising them (if not already) to the point where the tips are just under the water. That way, when pump power is lost, the siphon will occur very quickly and should help with the amount of water back-flowing in to the sump.

About an inch below surface. I'll raise them.

My thinking exactly. I also drilled a hole close to the surface on the return to stop the siphon quickly, my sump only gets half full when the pump is shut off.

Are you talking about drilling holes on the return nozzle in display?

 

[alanbetiger]

See if you can figure out what pipes the water is filling up from. If all from the return then you randomly added on the reactors but something is clogged in your siphon break on the return. Like they said drill another hole or raise your nozzles in the display. If from the reactors they are creating a suction and need a siphon break possibly as well. Might be now that you have the reactors online they are creating more of a siphon draw then your return did originally by itself. If this is correct you should see that your display goes down further than it did before when your pump is off. So raising the nozzles will help and/or a larger antisiphon hole in the return.
I had a similar issue but is was my antisiphon hole clogging and instead I actually just put a backflow valve on both my returns to prevent the siphon instead of using a hole in the return pipe.

 

[jazzmik]

If this is correct you should see that your display goes down further than it did before when your pump is off.

This... I have to check again, but it definitely seemed like the display went down further.

Where would I put an anti-siphon hole in the return at? Based on the photo above can you tell me where you're taking about?

 

[keddre]

Is your manifold or your to-tank line or drain line? If it's the to-tank line you may be able to just add a check valve at the top too

 

[jazzmik]

Is your manifold or your to-tank line or drain line? If it's the to-tank line you may be able to just add a check valve at the top too

If I understand your question... the manifold is off the return pump to the tank.

 

[keddre]

If I understand your question... the manifold is off the return pump to the tank.

Then you can add a check valve near the top of it so that it can only go into the tank and not down through the reactors. The drilled hole in the pipes or shortening it would be quicker though. Just adding to your options

 

[alanbetiger]

This... I have to check again, but it definitely seemed like the display went down further.

Where would I put an anti-siphon hole in the return at? Based on the photo above can you tell me where you're taking about?

The antisiphon hole goes on your return in the display area so not in that picture at all. Your return probably goes up in your overflow then curves up and down before it comes to a nozzle out in the display. A antisiphon hole needs to be just under the water line of your display above your nozzle. So when your pump is on the majority of water will come out the return nozzle/end but some will shoot out that antisiphon hole as well so most people put in the back where it can't be seen. When you turn off the pump the display water level will drop and go below the antisiphon hole causing air to get sucked in and break the siphon and your display shouldn't drop any more. If it does the hole isn't big enough. Again the other route is to not mess with a hole and add a backflow valve in your return above everything under your tank. Usually you'd still want an antisiphon hole as a backup if your valve breaks. Or just raise your return nozzles and the end effect is the same

 

[alanbetiger]

(Random internet photo) But that sideways hole is the anti-siphon and it can be as high up as your display water level

 

[jd371]

Are you talking about drilling holes on the return nozzle in display?

Yes, I don't have a drilled tank so my return nozzle hangs over the rim. I drilled a small hole in the return nozzle tube just under the water surface so when the pump stops the tank drains down to the hole and stops, which only drains enough water to reach halfway up the sump. If that hole was to get covered covered by a snail or get clogged, the nozzle is about 1/2" under the water surface, so if the hole doesn't stop the siphon the nozzle will. It will fill the sump a little more but not overflow. I was fearful of an overflow when I first started so I looked at all the scenarios and tested them.

 

[jd371]

Yep, that's my return nozzle and exactly what I did.

 

[jazzmik]

Thanks to all for the help. I have to play around with it tonight if I have the time.

 

[dbl]

If I'm correct on the dimensions for the RS 450, if your return nozzles are 1" below the surface, you'll be draining a little over 5 gallons in to the sump until the siphon breaks. If they can be raised to just below the water line, it will cut that down a lot. A side benefit is surface agitation too.

As you likely know, there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat in this hobby. The siphon hole in the return line is one way as suggested. The check valve is another. In my opinion, I do not want to rely on either of those options. Not saying they won't work, but less failure points are better, at least in my mind. I'm not trying to start a debate here, and as I said, both may work. But both of those options will require some maintenance along the way to keep them clean. Just my $.02.