Swapping Water Between Tanks 24/7

[Asonitez]

Interesting question because I haven't read any builds like this.

I have a remote fish room. Due to how my house is built I cannot run PVC into the fish room from my display. It would mean I need to run it Vertically vs Horizontally along my ceiling or something crazy to get it into the fishroom. My wife would NOT go for it. The thing is that my fish room is a fully functional environment with around 800 gallons of frag systems with their own dosing and filtration.

The display is around 30k of equipment and its own stand alone setup. My display is going through some "stuff" and part of the reason is I'm splitting time between them and my lovely little frags in the fish room. Now I recently purchased everything I need to start performing automatic water changes, automatic, refills into my ATO container and a few other things on my display. This is cool because it only requires some very small 1/4" RoDI tubing run cleverly through the ceiling and hidden behind some crown moulding. While I was setting this up I got to thinking would it be a good idea to tie the fish room tanks into my display (after its overhaul and restart). Basically I would use something like Versa pumps to setup a 24/7 water exchange between my 350 gallon (425 ish volume) display and the fish room to

A) Raise the nutrients in the fish room because I constantly have to dose Phosphate/Nitrate to keep the nutrients up in there
B) Share the benefits of my large calcium reactor by relocating it to the fish room where there is more space.
C) Relocate and setup my large Ozone Reactor where I can run it comfortably in my fishroom
D) Setup easier dosing of nutrients, and things like phyto in the fish room because my display would benefit.
E) Perform water changes in 1 location instead of 2.

As I understand it the Versa is designed to run comfortably 24/7 Syncing them wouldn't be too difficult because water would be extracted and replaced at the same time. I would still leave the sump in place at the display but I would certainly relocated the designer equipment to the fish room. It would take around 12 minutes to exchange 1 gallon between my display and the fish room.

Thoughts?

 

[dbowman5]

moving 120 gallons of water per day, not necessarily new water because the mixing of what is being pumped with what has already been pumped.
would your DT have one line delivering ATO water in addition to the one mixing or would that be the same line in your plan? one line to the DT one line to the Fish room, another for top off? how much evaporation does your DT have?
Is the DT requiring nutrient export now?
how much WC do you do now on your DT( how would the flow compare to that, would the manual WC be eliminated or just reduced?
interesting idea. would you have to make allowances for precipitation/growth in the lines since the transfer would involve bio-active water?

 

[Gablami]

So just to clarify, your sump is under the DT, and your just trying to connect your fishroom to your main system via a peristaltic pump.

first of all, I’ll warn you about the versa. It’s still new, and there are a lot of posts about problems with it clogging. I’ve seen it, the aperture of the opening is pretty small. Not surprised it’s clogging. Also, you’ll need two peristaltic pumps and they will need to be calibrated carefully, otherwise you’ll get a flood on one side (potentially) and salinity changes on the other (slowly).

If you can find one, and afford it, this is a great application for a masterflex peri pump with dual head. It’s the same head so it pulls evenly out and in. I just wouldn’t trust such an important job to a $150 new-to-the-market versa. I’m not sure if kamoer has a dual head function (haven’t seen one).

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

So just to clarify, your sump is under the DT, and your just trying to connect your fishroom to your main system via a peristaltic pump.

first of all, I’ll warn you about the versa. It’s still new, and there are a lot of posts about problems with it clogging. I’ve seen it, the aperture of the opening is pretty small. Not surprised it’s clogging. Also, you’ll need two peristaltic pumps and they will need to be calibrated carefully, otherwise you’ll get a flood on one side (potentially) and salinity changes on the other (slowly).

If you can find one, and afford it, this is a great application for a masterflex peri pump with dual head. It’s the same head so it pulls evenly out and in. I just wouldn’t trust such an important job to a $150 new-to-the-market versa. I’m not sure if kamoer has a dual head function (haven’t seen one).

I've used a masterflex pump with two heads in parallel on the same motor, to do automatic water changes but essentially the same as what you're trying to do. Unfortunately, even with the heads in parallel on the same motor, if the back-pressure isn't identical on both heads, there will still be some variation from the "in" head and the "out" head. I found that in my situation, there was almost a 2% difference between the two, which would add up fast if used to circulate water between systems. I think you'd find it would take less than a day to see issues with the peristaltic pumps not matching up exactly. I had about $1,500 in the masterflex, and ended up still having to make manual adjustments after each water change. Not the end of the world if just doing a change for a few hours, but would end badly if circulating 24/7.

I think the only reliable way to connect the two systems would be to plumb in a more conventional way to a common sump. Another alternative would be to have your display run without an ATO, and have a slower peristaltic pump emptying the display into your frag system, and use a float or optical eye to control a faster peristaltic pump to refill the display. This would cause the faster pump to cycle on and off to maintain a constant level in the display sump. This method, however would be prone to equipment or sensor failure which could result in some real headaches.

 

[Asonitez]

I would essentially leave both systems running identically. I would be using the 2 pumps to evenly remove and add water continuously through out the day 24/7. I would of course eliminate water changes on the display entirely except every so often to siphon the sand bed or something like that. ATO would be handled from the fish room system maintaining the salinity.

I would simply reduce the amount of equipment on the display and move it to the fish room where its easier to service and has more space to spread out and function without being crowded under the display.

The Goal is to reduce the equipment under the display stand, increase the water volume of the system, and continue to use equipment that can handle both systems without needing to duplicate equipment.

I suggested the VERSA as an example not necessarily the solution. I'm sure similiar things can be accomplished using a genesis automatic water changer setup or something similiar.

 

[Gablami]

I've used a masterflex pump with two heads in parallel on the same motor, to do automatic water changes but essentially the same as what you're trying to do. Unfortunately, even with the heads in parallel on the same motor, if the back-pressure isn't identical on both heads, there will still be some variation from the "in" head and the "out" head. I found that in my situation, there was almost a 2% difference between the two, which would add up fast if used to circulate water between systems. I think you'd find it would take less than a day to see issues with the peristaltic pumps not matching up exactly. I had about $1,500 in the masterflex, and ended up still having to make manual adjustments after each water change. Not the end of the world if just doing a change for a few hours, but would end badly if circulating 24/7.

I think the only reliable way to connect the two systems would be to plumb in a more conventional way to a common sump. Another alternative would be to have your display run without an ATO, and have a slower peristaltic pump emptying the display into your frag system, and use a float or optical eye to control a faster peristaltic pump to refill the display. This would cause the faster pump to cycle on and off to maintain a constant level in the display sump. This method, however would be prone to equipment or sensor failure which could result in some real headaches.

Actual they have a single dual head, where you fit two peri tubes into one head, same rollers. I did AWC with this for awhile but stopped.

 

[Reefs and Geeks]

Actual they have a single dual head, where you fit two peri tubes into one head, same rollers. I did AWC with this for awhile but stopped.

Interesting, I wonder if that would have worked better. I suppose there is a chance that if the tubes were on the same roller they could be closer.

I still think without some for of control other than assuming the inlet and outlet flowrates are identical you're just going to end up with issues. For example, for your 425 gallon system, even a very modest turn over of just 4x per day, you'd be exchanging 1700 gallons of water a day in and out. even if you had a 0.1% error between the inlet and outlet pumps, that would still be a 1.7 gallon/day difference that would either over fill, or drain out your display. I still think a 0.1% error would be extremely difficult to achieve, and even that doesn't seem like it would be satisfactory. I just bought a master flex that was over $6,000 for laboratory use less than a year ago, and after alot of use, still find that variations inlet/outlet pressure will change the flowrate enough that it still needs adjustment. and that's even with using deionized water with no contaminate that might be floating around like in a reef tank.

I'd also consider what would happen in case of a failure of any of the equipment used to tie the systems together as well. If you have some sort of sensors to control the exchange, flow should stop if one of the pumps were to break or become blocked. Otherwise, you'll have an instant flood. Or at least as instant as a peristaltic pump can pump.

 

[Gablami]

Aiming for 4x turnover of a large system with peripumps is not really realistic in the long term. I think it would be pushing the limits of even a masterflex.

To the OP, if you really want to have a fishroom that is meaningfully connected to your DT, you will probably need to run a PVC through your walls, or attic. While running RO tubing is certainly easier, it’s really not practical if transporting large amounts water back and forth.

On the other hand, if you’re thinking about a non traditional fishroom. You could for instance, have a peripump AWC into the DT system, and have it push tank water to a frag tank, or QT in your fishroom, and have an overflow from that fishroom tank into a drain. Then you can limit it to 10-20 gallons a day, get a water change, and get a separate tank system for less effort and have more of the safety built in. Just some ideas that I’ve toyed with.

 

[Asonitez]

Thank for all the replies. I love my house and I have toyed with the idea of relocating the tank, making it an In-wall etc. But its just not possible to position the tank in relation to the fish room to make it feasible. I mean there is a way but it would mean demolishing parts of the house relocating bathrooms and more than I'm willing to take on. (read wife said no....shes watching this thread don't make any sudden moves)....The thought process that i mostly followed was that I know people have these peristaltic pumps running 24/7. There are things I can do to mitigate danger for sure.

1/4" Flow detectors for one thing that can tell me if something is clogged or not running optimally or even stopped. Which would shut down the exchange. They could also help me dial in the exchange rate. Filters on the intake's would solve debris or anything like that.

Secondly I would probably consolidate my top off solution to the fish room to maintain the balance in the systems and remove the risk of dueling ATO solutions.

Likewise a simple float switch or sensor to detect high water level in either the fishroom or the display could shut down the exchange.


I do like the idea of a one way exchange.

Water from the fish room replenishes the display and itself and the display discards water outside. The only problem I see with this is that I would only be performing a water change to 1 system at a time and ideally I could see the fishroom being healthier than the display.

My inital goal was to devise a way to exchange meaningful water between 2 remote systems consistently. But I mean hey, if its not possible or practical, then it is what it is just a half baked idea lol.