Switching from2 part to also use kalwasser

[Silent]

BRS doesn't sell it (yet, at least; its a new recipe of mine). Amazon does. It raises pH twice as much as the carbonate.


There are several versions of the recipe. Here is one:

New DIY Two Part Recipes with Higher pH Boost

Here's a first crack at what may end up being multiple possible recipes for a DIY two part that either has a higher pH or can be made more concentrated than traditional two part recipes. This one has about twice the pH raising effect compared to a carbonate based two part, per unit of...

www.reef2reef.com

and

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

This Sodium Hydroxide you referenced states that it is sewer and septic safe and is used as a pipe drain cleaner. I assume even though this is 100% Sodium Hydroxide Food Grade it contains Sodium Silicate as a corrosion inhibitor. Are there any negative effects from the amount of Sodium Silicate that might be in this?

Is my understanding correct that the added Sodium Silicate might even be good for those teetering on zero measurable nutrients to prevent dinos?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

This Sodium Hydroxide you referenced states that it is sewer and septic safe and is used as a pipe drain cleaner. I assume even though this is 100% Sodium Hydroxide Food Grade it contains Sodium Silicate as a corrosion inhibitor. Are there any negative effects from the amount of Sodium Silicate that might be in this?

Is my understanding correct that the added Sodium Silicate might even be good for those teetering on zero measurable nutrients to prevent dinos?

I do not think it contains sodium silicate. It is simply indicating that it can be combined with it if the use is drain cleaning.

That said, I also dosed sodium silicate for sponges and such that need it.

 

[Silent]

Thank you for the reply.
I use BRS cal, alk, and mag. To switch from BRS alk (soda ash) to Sodium Hydroxide (listed above) and keeping the same strength, what amount of Sodium Hydroxide is equal? Roughly 1/2 cup (283g) Sodium Hydroxide to 128 fluid ounces of water?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you for the reply.
I use BRS cal, alk, and mag. To switch from BRS alk (soda ash) to Sodium Hydroxide (listed above) and keeping the same strength, what amount of Sodium Hydroxide is equal? Roughly 1/2 cup (283g) Sodium Hydroxide to 128 fluid ounces of water?

The linked recipe gives the details.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

If you don’t want to add kalk directly to your top off reservoir you could use something like this product https://www.tunze.com/fileadmin/gebrauchsanleitungen/x5074.8888.pdf
That would also keep the kalk away from the ATO pump.

 

[Silent]

OK for some reason I didn't realize you had to add the sodium hydroxide and the sodium sulfate to make the alk component.

Dissolve 282.8 g of sodium hydroxide (=7.07 moles of sodium hydroxide to match the 3.535 moles of sodium carbonate in alkalinity) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon. ​

 

[Alchameth]

Drawbacks include difficulty controlling potency, and the fact that it is not settled in the same way to reduce impurities.

Guess I don't see the difference between mixing up a big batch letting it sit in a brute or a stirrer, they both wait for evap to occur and ATO to kick on so it will vary day to day or time of year. I'm not an expert in all stirrers, but the Avast one I use has a slow motor that constantly stirs. Where as when I mixed it into my ATO bucket I had sludge at the bottom and was more worried about the slurry getting into the tank. ATO kicks on, kicks up Kalk in the bottom the the clear saturated water at the top goes out a gravity overflow. Apex delay only lets the ATO come on once an hour and it can only run for about 3 minutes so the cloudy never reaches the top; so that what was kicked up settles and stirrer mixes new water to max saturation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Guess I don't see the difference between mixing up a big batch letting it sit in a brute or a stirrer, they both wait for evap to occur and ATO to kick on so it will vary day to day or time of year. I'm not an expert in all stirrers, but the Avast one I use has a slow motor that constantly stirs. Where as when I mixed it into my ATO bucket I had sludge at the bottom and was more worried about the slurry getting into the tank. ATO kicks on, kicks up Kalk in the bottom the the clear saturated water at the top goes out a gravity overflow. Apex delay only lets the ATO come on once an hour and it can only run for about 3 minutes so the cloudy never reaches the top; so that what was kicked up settles and stirrer mixes new water to max saturation.

The drawbacks I claimed were potency control, and settling.

if you want 3/4 potency limewater, how do you do that?

Your mixer may allow settling (although fine particles take hours to settle so I'm not sure it is complete), but some certainly do not.

You also likely spend more time on yours than my method.

 

[Alchameth]

The drawbacks I claimed were potency control, and settling.

if you want 3/4 potency limewater, how do you do that?

Your mixer may allow settling (although fine particles take hours to settle so I'm not sure it is complete), but some certainly do not.

You also likely spend more time on yours than my method.

If I needed to adjust potency I could get a solenoid to split my ATO pump and run it off the PH, or time of day, and if I wanted to drop the money on a Trident I'd have more options. How would you do 3/4 potency with your method? If you are mixing that much up in brute cans and they sit for that long even with lids on you will have some water evap, then you have the CO2 absorption from sitting that long and you get increased precipitate and when it gets low you have a bigger chance of that getting into the tank.

It takes me less than 5 minutes to push a button on my Apex to turn off my ATO for 3 hours and add the scoop of kalk. Every few months I clean out and scrub the container, which would have to be done with brutes too. You are right on space being a big deciding factor for me. I don't have the room for mixing stations or a container with that much ATO water. I have been considering stacking my dryer which would give me about 3 X 3 X 8 ft to work with to setup some more automation, mixing tanks, and/or larger ATO container... so I'm curious about other options and considerations.

With my new tank and extra equipment space is a concern and I've been hesitant to put my stirrer in my sump where I have room for it.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

OK for some reason I didn't realize you had to add the sodium hydroxide and the sodium sulfate to make the alk component.

Dissolve 282.8 g of sodium hydroxide (=7.07 moles of sodium hydroxide to match the 3.535 moles of sodium carbonate in alkalinity) plus 68.7 g of sodium sulfate in enough water to make a total volume of one gallon.

You do not need to.

The recipe you looked at is different, but the second one I posted is an exact switch of sodium hydroxide for sodium carbonate from my original (which is what BRS uses).

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

here's the first post there:

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example).

Here's the original recipe link (which has a lot more discussion on the details and rationale):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The new recipe is shown below. It has about twice the pH boost of the original recipe (#1) and should be added to a very high flow area. Initial cloudiness (magnesium hydroxide) is expected, but it should disperse and dissolve. If not, stop using it and figure out why.

Alk part

Add 283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of fresh water. It will get quite warm. Make sure it doesn't soften your container. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). BE CAREFUL WITH THIS SOLUTION: IT HAS A pH ABOVE 14. Do not get it in your eyes or on your skin.

Calcium part

Dissolve 500 grams (about 2 ½ cups) of calcium chloride dihydrate (such as Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride or ESV calcium chloride; see below for substitutes and sources) in enough water to make 1 gallon of total volume. You can dissolve it in about ½ gallon of water, and then pour that into the 1 gallon container and fill it to the top with more freshwater. This solution has about 37,000 ppm calcium.

Magnesium part

Dissolve Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (3 cups) and magnesium chloride hexahydrate (5 cups) in enough purified freshwater to make 1 gallon total volume. There will likely be a precipitate that forms even if you fully dissolve both ingredients separately. That precipitate is calcium sulfate (calcium as an impurity in the magnesium chloride and sulfate from the Epsom salts). It is fine and appropriate to dose the precipitate along with the remainder of the fluid by shaking it up before dosing.

This solution is added much less frequently or in lower volume than the other two parts. Add 16% as much as the other two parts. Over the time you add 1 gallon of the others, 1 add 610 mL (2 ½ cups) of this solution. You can add it all at once or, preferably, over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

 

[Jet915]

Yes, I dose 2 part and kalk, keeps my pH around 8.2. 1 teaspoon per gallon of kalk.

 

[nereefpat]

1 - can kalkwasser be used in conjunction with 2 part? Is it best to switch completely to kalk?

Yes, you can use with 2-part. "Best" is always subjective. It's kind of up to you. The only real downside to kalk is that there is a limit to how much dKH can be dosed, since kalk is more dilute than 2 part, so some tanks packed with corals may not be able to only use kalk.

2 - unlike the 2 part, there is no mixing or dosing instructions on the kalkwasser. Is there a reference sheet on it (This is the dry BRS kalwasser in the 1 gallon jug). I am currently consuming about 70ml of each alk and ca two part a day.

Looks like you found a calculator. You'll just have to play around with it, then use the kalk, and adjust dosing as needed.

3 - I don't want to add it to my top off. My husband is good at helping me keep the reservoir filled and I don't want to make him measure and add stuff. Instead I would like to use a doser. Do I need a stirrer or is shaking by hand once a day good enough?

It's actually better to use a doser instead of ATO. Doser is constant, while top off can change because evap isn't always constant. You don't need a stirrer. Some people like them. Stirring up once is all you need, not even once a day...just once. Make a batch in a bucket, then make another batch when you run out in a week or whenever.

 

[spiraling]

You do not need to.

The recipe you looked at is different, but the second one I posted is an exact switch of sodium hydroxide for sodium carbonate from my original (which is what BRS uses).

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

here's the first post there:

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/

But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example).

Here's the original recipe link (which has a lot more discussion on the details and rationale):

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

The new recipe is shown below. It has about twice the pH boost of the original recipe (#1) and should be added to a very high flow area. Initial cloudiness (magnesium hydroxide) is expected, but it should disperse and dissolve. If not, stop using it and figure out why.

Alk part

Add 283 grams of sodium hydroxide to 1 gallon of fresh water. It will get quite warm. Make sure it doesn't soften your container. This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). BE CAREFUL WITH THIS SOLUTION: IT HAS A pH ABOVE 14. Do not get it in your eyes or on your skin.

Calcium part

Dissolve 500 grams (about 2 ½ cups) of calcium chloride dihydrate (such as Dowflake 77-80% calcium chloride or ESV calcium chloride; see below for substitutes and sources) in enough water to make 1 gallon of total volume. You can dissolve it in about ½ gallon of water, and then pour that into the 1 gallon container and fill it to the top with more freshwater. This solution has about 37,000 ppm calcium.

Magnesium part

Dissolve Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate heptahydrate (3 cups) and magnesium chloride hexahydrate (5 cups) in enough purified freshwater to make 1 gallon total volume. There will likely be a precipitate that forms even if you fully dissolve both ingredients separately. That precipitate is calcium sulfate (calcium as an impurity in the magnesium chloride and sulfate from the Epsom salts). It is fine and appropriate to dose the precipitate along with the remainder of the fluid by shaking it up before dosing.

This solution is added much less frequently or in lower volume than the other two parts. Add 16% as much as the other two parts. Over the time you add 1 gallon of the others, 1 add 610 mL (2 ½ cups) of this solution. You can add it all at once or, preferably, over time as you choose, depending on the aquarium's size and set up. Add it to a high flow area, preferably a sump. In a very small aquarium, or one without a sump, I suggest adding it slowly.

For the alk part, " This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). "
Is that about the same as the BRS soda ash solution? If I add about 70ml/day now would I add about the same after switching (obviously monitoring PH as I do)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

For the alk part, " This solution will contain about 1,900 meq/L of alkalinity (5,300 dKH). "
Is that about the same as the BRS soda ash solution? If I add about 70ml/day now would I add about the same after switching (obviously monitoring PH as I do)

The BRS recipe using sodium carbonate is my DIY Recipe #1. So the new recipe is identical in all respects except the hydroxide swap for carbonate. The higher pH may increase demand, so you may need to add somewhat more.

 

[Doctorgori]

Randy many thanks

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

If I needed to adjust potency I could get a solenoid to split my ATO pump and run it off the PH, or time of day, and if I wanted to drop the money on a Trident I'd have more options. How would you do 3/4 potency with your method? If you are mixing that much up in brute cans and they sit for that long even with lids on you will have some water evap, then you have the CO2 absorption from sitting that long and you get increased precipitate and when it gets low you have a bigger chance of that getting into the tank.

Far easier: add 3/4 of the amount to attain saturation.

No evaporation, no change in potency in a sitting Brute can with a lid.