Switching to kalk+vinegar from two-part...with questions!

mcarroll · Apr 22, 2015

I've dosed kalk+vinegar as a supplement to two-part before, but it's been a while and it was never to the extent I intend now - which is a two-part replacement.

I've never seen anyone do kalk+vinegar to this extent in fact, so I've got a couple of questions.

Background Links

Thoughts
Ordinary saturated limewater (6g kalk/gallon) would exceed my evaporation levels, taking at least a gallon a day to meet calcium and alkalinity needs.

Assuming my understanding has been correct, 25mL of (5%) vinegar will completely dissolve 1.5g of kalk powder.

Question #1:
Is it even necessary to dissolve the kalk+vinegar further in water to be ready for dosing? I know Tropic Marin's BioCalcium (which is at least similar) is intended to be dosed directly onto the tank surface without dilution.

Question #2:
I do get some sediment from kalk+vinegar even at the 1.5g/25mL level. If I don't want to dose the sediment, do I need to be concerned for the strength of the solution being dosed?

First Dose:
I made a 3g/50mL batch in one liter of RODI water and am dripping it overnight as a test. I want to make a solution at least twice that strong, but that could be a lot of vinegar per day going into the tank -- we'll see how it goes.

Thanks anyone for any tips or insights!

-Matt

CC: @craigbingman @Randy Holmes-Farley
(~~How do usernames with a space work with mentions?~~ They just work.)

mcarroll · Apr 22, 2015

First dose seemed to land me at the meq/L I expected...and no apparent ill effects.

So I made a 6g/100mL batch, diluted into a liter again....just added what should be the correct portion to get alk up to 3.5 meq/L to my dripper. Will test again later today.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 22, 2015

I'm not sure I understand question 1 exactly, but I've directly dosed calcium hydroxide dissolved directly into full strength vinegar (with excess lime). going this route will be quite a lot of vinegar per unit of alkalinity added. So be sure you are up for that much vinegar.

If you mean do you need further dilution beyond 3 teaspoons lime per gallon of fresh water and 45 mL of vinegar per gallon of fresh water that Craig suggested before dosing, then no.

I'd ignore any remaining solids, and just determine the amount of clear liquid needed to meet the demand for alkalinity (and by extension, calcium).

mcarroll · Apr 22, 2015

You got my questions right.

Depending on the circumstances, I may skip diluting with water....I can see how having it diluted would make portions easier to be measured though.

And you're right: I am concerned about the quantity of vinegar that will be going into the tank....but not sure what/when the danger would be. pH basically shouldn't move and that seems to be the most typical problem with dosing.

It's a low-nutrient tank....maybe with an accumulation of PO4 just due to the time the tank's been up (but I've never tested)....so there really isn't much/if any nitrate. So, just not sure what to expect if there were to be a problem.

For what it's worth, even after the second dose, the tank seems as happy as before the switch. So far, so good.

Also...

I'm nowhere close to the dosing levels people noted in another good background link I forgot to add: Randy's vinegar dosing limit. I found it! - Reef Central Online Community

We'll see if I need to go as far.

hart24601 · Apr 22, 2015

Did you carbon dose before this change? How much vinegar will you be adding per day now?

I am curious what effects extra carbon dosing will have if you were already low nutrient. In my experience with carbon dosing if I have too low of nutrients my coral colors suffer, so I dose nitrate from time to time. I have also noticed that if I am dosing a bit too heavy and I don't have either enough nitrate or phosphate the corals do not seem "normal". I can't really explain what is going on in those situations, but the few times it has happened it's pretty clear. The last time I noticed it I had a lot of nitrates due to me not checking equipment enough, but there was plenty of gfo and it appeared the bacteria and other carbon dosing utilizing organisms where phosphate limited and there was notable coral retraction. I took gfo offline and dosed a tiny bit of phosphate and everything went back to normal. Just something to keep in mind if you will be adding carbon based off of alk demands through saturated kalk and not based of nutrient levels.

mcarroll · Apr 23, 2015

I have run kalk+vinegar in the distant past, but not lately and it was no more than 50mL or so per 5gal bucket of ATO water. I'm definitely going to be on the lookout for "bad stuff" happening...considering this a test.

After a quick re-estimation of consumption it looks like the tank will require pretty close to 6g of kalk/day (1 gal of normal saturated kalk).

I've made a concentrated 1 liter batch to last me a week, giving me five nice, round 200mL doses. (30g of kalk powder, mixed with 125 mL of vinegar, topped up to 1 liter with RODI.)

Still getting what seems like a lot of residue compared to what I've read so far about others experience - about a finger's width at the bottom of a 1-liter beaker on this batch after stirring well and then five or so minutes of settling.

Will see how it goes for a few days!

Randy Holmes-Farley · Apr 23, 2015

Do you know that you are adding enough vinegar to get the pH low in the final product after the calcium hydroxide is added? Craig's ratio (45 mL vinegar to 3 teaspoons lime) doesn't do that. It will have some solids (like magnesium hydroxide and calcium carbonate, and calcium hydroxide if the water is reduced below 1 gallon).

When I was manually dosing vinegar I saturated it with excess lime solids and just always left the residue on the bottom. It doesn't hurt anything that way, and the high pH ensures no microbial growth in it.

mcarroll · Apr 23, 2015

Of the few I'm aware of now who've dosed like this, I haven't seen anyone post pH numbers.

I had, however, presumed that the kalk+vinegar mixture would be something like neutral compared to raw limewater.

Wasn't too sure of the exact impact once the acetate starts being digested in the tank tho.

I also presume that dripping makes any changes pretty gradual.

I also weigh my ingredients....do you know what 3 tsp is in grams?

Are you suggesting less vinegar and more kalk vs the 25 mL per 1.5 grams formula?

mcarroll · May 10, 2015

Just to check in, I didn't like the results so much. I wasn't able to take measurements along the way to check progress, but alk was below 2.0 at the end of the week. I think if the solution worked as expected, alk should have at least been in the vicinity of normal...around 2.5-3.0 meq/L.

It took about a week to normalize salinity by replacing ~10 gallons of saltwater with RODI, and readjusting cal and alk by intensive testing and dosing with only Recipe 2's alk component.

Once testing indicated a need, I started dosing Tropic Marin's Bio-Calcium. AFAIK, this is pre-formulated kalk+vinegar mixture that also claims to include trace elements. Seems to cost about the same as regular kalk powder (e.g. ESV, TLF, etc), so as long as this gives better/more predictable results I'll be happy.

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 10, 2015

Unless they've changed the recipe, Tropic Marin Biocalcium is not calcium acetate (like Salifert All in One is), but rather a dry mix of calcium chloride and baking/washing soda.

mcarroll · May 10, 2015

Would like to try that All In One, but never seen it for sale. Any tips for a distributor that a LFS could order from?

On the BioCalcium...Hum. Good tip...been a long time since I read the article where you talked about BioCalcium. [emoji4]

So BioCalcium isn't what I was really after chemistry-wise, but I will admit it seems convenient. I like not having to mix or futz with a dripper. Measuring with a precise scale @~4.5g/scoop makes measuring out precise doses easier than volume measurement. (Cheapie that measures to 0.00 g)

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 11, 2015

I've not tried to buy All In One recently, but google shopping shows at least one hit:

All In One Organic Calcium 500ml, Salifert

mcarroll · May 11, 2015

Dead link/to a construction page...will see if I can get in touch with Salifert. Hopefully someone's doing it!

Was about to reach out to Salifert, but was just reminded they have no contact info on their website. LOL.

Ah well. I've got til the end of this container of BioCalcium to figure out what I'm gonna do.

mcarroll · May 11, 2015

PetStore.com (Amazon) has it...$46/liter though!

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 11, 2015

mcarroll said:
Dead link/to a construction page...will see if I can get in touch with Salifert. Hopefully someone's doing it!
o.

It allows me to put it in a cart, but the cost is generally the drawback of using calcium acetate.

jedimasterben · May 11, 2015

Red Sea also has an 'all in one' powdered product, ABC+. Red Sea Reef Foundation ABC+ Supplement (Ca/Sr/KH/Mg/K/Br)

MD also has Salifert All in One Salifert All-In-One

mcarroll · May 11, 2015

MD = petstore.com

Will check out the Red Sea product!

mcarroll · May 11, 2015

Sounds like it might be very similar to Tropic Marin bio calcium and related products. It's something to consider. I wonder about bang:buck.

mcarroll · May 11, 2015

Randy Holmes-Farley I'm starting to consider a ReefFiller and auto-water changes more seriously. It's either that or I automate dosing...but I really don't mind dosing manually. It's no different than feeding manually to me, and I haven't had the best luck with dosing pumps.

Can you tell me what model ReefFiller you have? I know there are options for seals, pump rate and pressure, as well as plumbing options.

And do you wish you had any different options than your current ReefFiller?

Randy Holmes-Farley · May 11, 2015

Just bear in mid the reef Filler is noisy, so have it in a basement or garage. A dual channel peristaltic pump would be a lot quieter.

For water changes, I have the 30 gallon per day dual head Reef Filler on a timer. For limewater I have a 15 gallon per day single head on a float switch, and it is dialed back a bit from 15 gallons.