Tang - Flukes while in therapeutic copper

[PaulieReef]

While doing a standard QT for all new fish, I got my tang to therapeutic copper levels (2.0 ppm copper power). I matched the salinity in the bag and the fish has been in QT for 3 days at therapeutic levels.

I noticed this morning an array of flukes on him as well, followed by him skimming the surface of the water and loss of appetite

Is it safe to do a FWD and then put the fish back into therapeutic copper? If I noticed rapid or lethargic breathing, what is the protocol?

Do I take the fish out of copper treatment and put him in untreated copper water and treat for flukes first in prazi?

 

[fishguy242]

#fishmedic

 

[LAReefer4Life]

You can ABSOLUTELY conduct a FWD and place hime back in copper. This would be the best to confirm flukes as well.

 

[PaulieReef]

You can ABSOLUTELY conduct a FWD and place hime back in copper. This would be the best to confirm flukes as well.

Ok, had rodi water prepped for this response. Been airrating for 45 minutes and the temp matches QT. More to come.

 

[vetteguy53081]

While doing a standard QT for all new fish, I got my tang to therapeutic copper levels (2.0 ppm copper power). I matched the salinity in the bag and the fish has been in QT for 3 days at therapeutic levels.

I noticed this morning an array of flukes on him as well, followed by him skimming the surface of the water and loss of appetite

Is it safe to do a FWD and then put the fish back into therapeutic copper? If I noticed rapid or lethargic breathing, what is the protocol?

Do I take the fish out of copper treatment and put him in untreated copper water and treat for flukes first in prazi?

While a dip can be performed, You will need to confirm flukes as you generally cannot see flukes but rather go off fluke symptoms and respond accordingly.
Can you provide pics under white lighting of what you suspect as flukes ?
Neobendendia flukes are the only ones visible and require hyposalinity than Prazi.
Some symptoms are yawning, rapid breathing, darting and scratching, loss of appetite and cloudy eyes.
Therapuetic copper level for tang is 2.25-2.5 for a FULL 30 days Unless you are doing an observation tank.

 

[PaulieReef]

While a dip can be performed, You will need to confirm flukes as you generally cannot see flukes but rather go off fluke symptoms and respond accordingly.
Can you provide pics under white lighting of what you suspect as flukes ?
Neobendendia flukes are the only ones visible and require hyposalinity than Prazi.
Some symptoms are yawning, rapid breathing, darting and scratching, loss of appetite and cloudy eyes.
Therapuetic copper level for tang is 2.25-2.5 for a FULL 30 days Unless you are doing an observation tank.

Unfortunately because of the previous response. I just did the freshwater dip.

I would say about 90% of the flukes fell off, there are a few left ok it’s belly that turned huge.

So think it was definitely flukes.

Fish is back in 2.0ppm copper, and rapid breathing. I assume this is normal after something like this.

Turned the lights off to reduce stress.

 

[LAReefer4Life]

Unfortunately because of the previous response. I just did the freshwater dip.

I would say about 90% of the flukes fell off, there are a few left ok it’s belly that turned huge.

So think it was definitely flukes.

Fish is back in 2.0ppm copper, and rapid breathing. I assume this is normal after something like this.

Turned the lights off to reduce stress.

FWD performed was the right call to confirm Neobenedenia flukes.

Yes, rapid breathing after dip is normal response. Do you have a picture of the water or bucket after the dip to confirm flukes?

 

[PaulieReef]

FWD performed was the right call to confirm Neobenedenia flukes.

Yes, rapid breathing after dip is normal response. Do you have a picture of the water after the dip to confirm flukes?

I didn’t have a black bucket available to do the FWD, so I can’t see anything.

However, all the lines I saw on the fish before have fallen off.

Video above is before the dip. All the “moving” small dots on the fin and body are no longer there post dip.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Flukes don't move laterally on the fish. When Neobenedenia flukes are dying, some will sort of "flap" in the water.

I couldn't get a good focus on the video to see exactly what is going on, but I imagine it is either flukes, or crustacean parasites.

The rapid breathing post dip is of course from the stress of the dip itself, but can also be from all of the flukes dropping off at once, leaving tiny holes all over the fish's skin. In severe cases, the fish can bleed out and die from anemia. There isn't really any work around for that other than keeping the fish in the dark and keeping the salinity/specific gravity down below 1.022 so that it better matches the fish's blood system.

Jay

 

[PaulieReef]

Flukes don't move laterally on the fish. When Neobenedenia flukes are dying, some will sort of "flap" in the water.

I couldn't get a good focus on the video to see exactly what is going on, but I imagine it is either flukes, or crustacean parasites.

The rapid breathing post dip is of course from the stress of the dip itself, but can also be from all of the flukes dropping off at once, leaving tiny holes all over the fish's skin. In severe cases, the fish can bleed out and die from anemia. There isn't really any work around for that other than keeping the fish in the dark and keeping the salinity/specific gravity down below 1.022 so that it better matches the fish's blood system.

Jay

How long is “normal” for the rapid breathing? As in if the breathing doesn’t slow in X amount of time.

 

[PaulieReef]

Salinity is 1.025 currently

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

How long is “normal” for the rapid breathing? As in if the breathing doesn’t slow in X amount of time.

Respiration rates are different between fish species and fish in warmer water breath faster than in cooler water. Generally though, any fish breathing slower than 100 gill beats per minute is fine, 150 is cause for concern, and over 200 may end in death pretty rapidly.

I find it easiest to video the fish and then view the video and count the gill beats. If a fish breaths 12 times in ten seconds, that equals 12*6 - 72 beats per minute.

jay

 

[PaulieReef]

Respiration rates are different between fish species and fish in warmer water breath faster than in cooler water. Generally though, any fish breathing slower than 100 gill beats per minute is fine, 150 is cause for concern, and over 200 may end in death pretty rapidly.

I find it easiest to video the fish and then view the video and count the gill beats. If a fish breaths 12 times in ten seconds, that equals 12*6 - 72 beats per minute.

jay

Did the FWD about 4 hours ago and it seems the breathing is over 200, about 240 to be exact. Heavily aerated water, but looks like it might have been to much.

Is it worth taking it out of copper to help reduce stress? and putting in fresh saltwater without any copper? Or moving will just cause more stress.

 

[PaulieReef]

No detectable ammonia, airstone in tank and powerhead facing water surface. Guess all I can do is sit and wait at this point.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

No detectable ammonia, airstone in tank and powerhead facing water surface. Guess all I can do is sit and wait at this point.

Can you lower the specific gravity to 1.021 or so? That will reduce the osmotic stress on the fish in case this is from flukes dropping off.

240 BPM is just about the 100% fatal level though - not good at all!


Jay

 

[PaulieReef]

Can you lower the specific gravity to 1.021 or so? That will reduce the osmotic stress on the fish in case this is from flukes dropping off.

Jay

I can do a water change and lower it for sure, would also lower the copper levels if thats ok. And then just restart QT once/if fish calms down and eats again.

 

[PaulieReef]

Covered the tank and just checked breath rate again (havent done salinity change), but we are around 180-192, still not great but seems to be going down at least, will check again in another few hours. If it doesn't drastically improve, I will lower salinity.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Did the FWD about 4 hours ago and it seems the breathing is over 200, about 240 to be exact. Heavily aerated water, but looks like it might have been to much.

Is it worth taking it out of copper to help reduce stress? and putting in fresh saltwater without any copper? Or moving will just cause more stress.

4 hours ???? Its 5 minutes recommended

 

[PaulieReef]

4 hours ???? Its 5 minutes recommended

I did 4 minutes, I am saying it’s been 4 hours since I did the FWD. Meaning he has been in normal saltwater for 3 hours and 55 minutes.

 

[PaulieReef]

Breath regulating, around 156 now. Hopefully makes it through the night and tomorrow sub 100. And praying he has an appetite.