Tang HLLE and Aquarium Covers

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Oh, I forgot about one other nutritional study from UofF - the researcher set up to test the hypothesis that diet is involved. They never published because a grad student thought the tanks looked dingy and put carbon on them, and ALL of the fish, including the controls, developed HLLE.
Jay

 

[Miller535]

It's good that you removed the covers and your LFS is right about that but it won't fix the HLLE.

HLLE is purely nutritional. If the tangs get too much non-vegtable food in their diet then this is the result. It's not to say they won't eat mysis and the like it's that they aren't meat eaters and I really think it's pushing it to call them omnivores. For me they are herbivores and need to be treated as such. I have corrected this problem on many tangs from owners that don't know. If you feed them an all vegtable diet then the problem will clear up in a couple of weeks. Be warned though if there are other fish that aren't herbivores it will be tough to keep them out of the other fishes food. Kind of like haveing a dog or cat with a special diet in a multi-pet household.

My experience is that it's MOSTLY nutritional (I did have some heavy metals for a little bit that got corrected).I have had a hippo for roughly 6 years. And he eventually got HLLE. I fixed it with his diet. Not to crush your new hope but I also ran glass tops for the first several years and he never had it during that time. There is a reason that they are called "the cows of the sea". They need to be eating and eating algae and plant in large portions every day. I feed seaweed BUT I feed green, red, and purple. A few days a week I feed the frozen shrimp that are green from being gut loaded with algae, some omnivore pellets, and some pellets that are JUST algae/vegetable. Personally I find most people who have issues with tangs are feeding them WAY too much carnivore foods and meaty foods. Then when you ask them they're like well we feed part of a sheet of nori twice a week or whatever, and quality PE mysis or whatever meaty food they prefer. And that just does not meat the dietary needs of tangs. Tangs are pigs, they will eat any food that goes into the system, but foods other then their natural staple diet will not sustain them. Sure you will find the reefer that says I never feed nori or plant matter, when most of the time they have never had one for any amount of time, or they just got lucky with an anomaly.

 

[Miller535]

Here's another one. My LFS says that keeping Tangs in a FOWLER tanks will cause HLLE. Says these fish need to live in the jungle. I am not discounting it since everything else I am currently doing is not working.....

My tank was also a FOWLER for the full 6 years I had him until about 5 months ago when I converted it to a REEF. And the HLLE was gone before that.

 

[Lasse]

@Jay Hemdal Could it be different agents of HLLE - HLLE is only a symptomatically description as I see it.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tony Thompson]

Great advice from @Jay Hemdal and I both recognise and respect his extensive knowledge and experience. However @Fastpitch , you may also want to contact Dr. Gerald Bassleer, He has done some study on the subject. You can find him on Google. He is very approachable and speaks very good English. As far as I am aware the collective works of research on the subject seem to indicate not just one problem but a number of problems to do with the animals overall health. Factors such as stress, nutrition and general water quality can all play a part in the animals immune system. Dr Basleers Prebiotic and Probiotic approach certainly has some validity in my opinion. You can find one of his papers on his website and also on Research Gate if you have a University logon. He also has some very good videos on YouTube.

 

[Tony Thompson]

@Lasse , very good point, my opinion also. I believe It is a symptom or reaction brought on by a number of variables. Not just one cause.

 

[Lasse]

Great advice from @Jay Hemdal and I both recognise and respect his extensive knowledge and experience. However, you may also want to contact Dr. Gerald Bassleer, He has done some study on the subject. You can find him on Google. He is very approachable and speaks very good English. As far as I am aware the collective works of research on the subject seem to indicate not just one problem but a number of problems to do with the animals overall health. Factors such as stress, nutrition and general water quality can all play a part in the animals immune system. Dr Basleers Prebiotic and Probiotic approach certainly has some validity in my opinion. You can find one of his papers on his website and also on Research Gate if you have a University logon. He also has some very good videos on YouTube.

@Lasse , very good point, my opinion also. I believe It is a symptom or reaction brought on by a number of variables. Not just one cause.

You was faster than me I had this in mind - but i did not fire Big Bertha direct Tang is "aufwuch" feeders with a very long intestine and my experiences says that it is exactly that type of fish that will easily get a Spironucleus infection. And in many freshwater species it will show up as Hole in the Head syndrom (HIHS) and/or Head and Lateral Line Syndrome (HLLS or HLLE) And I know that Dr. Gerald Bassler have claimed

This is a multi-factor disease caused by intestinal parasites Spironucleus, bad microbiome in gut, bad food, stress, lack of nutrients, etc.

- here. It should be easy to check because if it is caused by Spironucleus infections - treatment with drugs based on Metronidazole or its derivatives will work

Not saying that Active carbon not can be an agent too - I think that it have been showed by Jay´s report but HLLE (HLLS) is a symptom - not a specific disease - there can be multiple agents - with other words both biotic and abiotic agents can show the same symptoms.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

You was faster than me I had this in mind - but i did not fire Big Bertha direct Tang is "aufwuch" feeders with a very long intestine and my experiences says that it is exactly that type of fish that will easily get a Spironucleus infection. And in many freshwater species it will show up as Hole in the Head syndrom (HIHS) and/or Head and Lateral Line Syndrome (HLLS or HLLE) And I know that Dr. Gerald Bassler have claimed - here. It should be easy to check because if it is caused by Spironucleus infections - treatment with drugs based on Metronidazole or its derivatives will work

Not saying that Active carbon not can be an agent too - I think that it have been showed by Jay´s report but HLLE (HLLS) is a symptom - not a specific disease - there can be multiple agents - with other words both biotic and abiotic agents can show the same symptoms.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,
Spironucleus has been isolated from FW fish with HLLE, but it is an incidental finding in marine HLLE. Our study fish showed none of that upon histopathology. Dr. Bassleer and I disagree on many things, but on this one I stand very firm.
Jay

 

[Lasse]

Dr. Bassleer and I disagree on many things

Is it the right word here? You do not mean agree? - I do not get it otherwise but it can be my bad understanding of english.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Tony Thompson]

Great to see two very knowledgeable and respected minds on the subject @Jay Hemdal and @Lasse.

I think this is the point where I will take up the position as student. I will read some of the publications and studies you mentioned Jay. I will take this opportunity increase my knowledge on the subject and greatly appreciate any information that you both may have to offer.

Best wishes to you both, Stay safe.

 

[Tony Thompson]

@Jay Hemdal , just noticed in my original post it may have easily been construed that I was referring to yourself when I wrote " you may also want to contact Dr. Gerald Bassleer " I have edited my original reply to eliminate any mis understanding. I apologise if it was interpreted in that way. If this was not the case, then I have just wasted another 2 mins of my time worrying about offending people.. Apologising is an English Hobby.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Is it the right word here? You do not mean agree? - I do not get it otherwise but it can be my bad understanding of english.

Sincerely Lasse

No - that was the correct word. We disagree on a number of aspects of fish medicine, among other things (Politics). I do keep an open mind, and I constantly try to learn all I can, but on this particular topic, I stand firm in my conclusions.

Jay

 

[HuduVudu]

Attached is a copy of my 2011 paper. You can find the second paper by searching Google for "Stamper HLLE". He published just a month before we did, same results. The ONLY nutritional study that has ever been done was by George Blasiola in the 1980's and wasn't peer-reviewed. He concluded that HLLE was caused by a lack of vitamin C. However, he moved the fish in the study. My research shows that moving the fish to a new system is one of the factors seen in remission. This carbon link goes all the way back to the late 1970's. Tom Frakes of Aquarium Systems was at a conference in Germany. They were discussing HLLE and all the proposed causes. A German Aquarium curator asked the group, why the discussion, we all know it is caused by carbon. Tom told me about that years later, and when I started seeing it myself at my facility, we stopped using carbon. No HLLE in 20+ years (well, except for the fish I infected for my study). I DO see epithelial thinning in blue tangs, but as I explained, that is a different issue. I am talking about deep pit, classic HLLE here.

Old ideas die hard, and I'm certainly not advocating feeding fish a poor diet, but the causation link has never been proven. Another issue that needs further research is if other types of dust in water can cause HLLE. After my study, a researcher out in California told me he found dust particles in the lateral lines of fish with HLLE using an electron microscope. He had no funding to continue looking into that though.

Jay

Jay,

I REALLY appreciate the detailed response, this is refreshing and THIS is what experts/scientists do that is most helpful to us the laymen. Thank you so much for providing this information. I do know how frustrating it can be repeating the same thing over and over again, but information even in the information age can be frustratingly difficult to find.

I read your study, and I agree your results are statistically significant but not definitive. But where in life do we get perfect. I also like that you leave open other possiblities like agression as possible issues. I tried to look up the George Blasiola study ... no go . I also tried for the Stamper study and got the Wikipedia article:

Head and lateral line erosion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This did it for me, I now agree with you that HLLE is not nutrional. If a Red Oscar can get it then that certainly casts doubt on my assertion. It's funny that many many years ago when I worked in a pet store in high school we had some rather large Oscars with this. Back then I had no idea what it was and just assumed it was normal to the fish. I don't know if carbon was in use but I wasn't the only maintainer of tanks and it seems that it can linger in the system, so perhaps it was used before I was there.

I find the tank switching finding an interesting rabbit hole that might someday be explored.

Thank you Jay for taking the time to educate me.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - the Wikipedia article is wrong according to freshwater fish. As mentioned before Spironucleus infections has been related to both Hole in Head and HLLE in FW fish. Spironucleus is a normal part of the microbial fauna in the intestine of FW fish at least. They are isolated from saltwater too at least Hexamita salmonis in farmed Atlantic salmons. As noted above - there is different opinions about Spironucleus and HLLE in tangs

Sincerely Lasse

 

[HuduVudu]

IMO - the Wikipedia article is wrong according to freshwater fish. As mentioned before Spironucleus infections has been related to both Hole in Head and HLLE in FW fish. Spironucleus is a normal part of the microbial fauna in the intestine of FW fish.

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse,
My point is that Oscars are carnivores and they get it. Most cases of HLLE in salt water are predominately herbivores and some omnivores. That was my only point. I wasn't necessarly agreeing with the article just that Oscars can get this also. With that it casts heavy doubt for me on the nutritional aspect.

 

[Lasse]

Its right - I do not think is a nutritional aspect directly - for me (in freshwater fish) is a question of stress. But in those species of freshwater fish that get Spironucleus infections easiest - the aufwuch feeders are predominant. IMO - Discus is no carnivorous species - it is mostly a bacteria and aufwuch feeder in the wild. IMO - Tangs are aufwuch feders and they have a long intestine - comparable with Tropheus species from the Lake Tanganyika. They should not be feed with easily digestible food.

Yes I believe that activated carbon can cause it - but I have seen it in fish that never been in water treated with active carbon too

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Lasse]

But this is IMO easy to test. If there is a tang with HLLE and no active carbon in use and it gets better with treatment with Metronidazole or its derivatives - the problem in this case originate from the intestine. I hate this way of animal experiment but if a fish is on its way to die I think that I can argue for it. But do not take this for prophylactic treatment.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Don’t forget that groupers and morays are both prone to HLLE.

We chased the Hexamita link back in the late 1980’s, but metronidazole couldn’t resolve it in marine fish, only oscars and discus.

Jay

 

[Lasse]

We chased the Hexamita link back in the late 1980’s, but metronidazole couldn’t resolve it in marine fish, only oscars and discus.

Jay

If it is tested - when I have to accept it. But do you think that activated carbon is the only cause?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

If it is tested - when I have to accept it. But do you think that activated carbon is the only cause?

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse, I’m not sure if carbon is the only cause, because it is so difficult to test the negative, and we’ve found that even carbon use in the past can create on going issues, we think because of dust in the system. I’m just saying that there haven’t been any true studies looking at nutrition, etc. My Hexamita trials were NOT a real study, just observational, so I would welcome a real study on that as well. When I get home tonight, I’ll post some other HLLE info I have, it’s just hard to do that on my phone!
Jay