Tank Agression

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

I have a 72 gallon tank as well as a forty 40 gallon breeder. In the 72 is a purple Tang, clown Goby, and two black and white clown fish. Yesterday I finally broke down the 40 gallon tank and moved over my lawn mower blenny, Royal grammah, and maroon clown fish. Everything was fine this morning until 3:30 this afternoon. I fed the fish at noon and everything was okay. Just now I looked in the purple tang looks like this. He was fined two hours ago and I'm not sure what fish beat him up. I have a feeling it was the royal grandma as he's been aggressive in the past, but I didn't see anything, and I don't know where the royal grammah is right now is he's hiding. What should I do? I don't want to lose this purple tang, and I feel like I would cause more stress by moving him over to the 40 gallon tank, which he would be able to have by himself.

Robg719 · Mar 5, 2018

Hard to tell by pictures, but are you sure he was "beat up"? Looks like may have been rubbing himself against rocks or something. Nothing ever surprises me, but doubtful a Royal Gramma would successfully bully a Purple Tang.
PS - I am sure you've heard this, but a 40 gallon and a 72 gallon (combined) are both too small for your Tang. If he heals up will likely get stressed and get sick from being in a small tank or get super-aggressive long-term

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

He's been in the tank for 4 months now and everything has been fine up until now. I just called my friend at the LFS and he said that he wouldn't be surprised if it was the royal grammah as they are known a** holes in his opinion. 72 gallons is an acceptable tank size for this tang until he gets larger. I don't really care what others thoughts on that matter is as I will just direct you to Sanjay Moshi's gem tang in his 40BR that's been alive for 10 years.

Robg719 said:
Hard to tell by pictures, but are you sure he was "beat up"? Looks like may have been rubbing himself against rocks or something. Nothing ever surprises me, but doubtful a Royal Gramma would successfully bully a Purple Tang.
PS - I am sure you've heard this, but a 40 gallon and a 72 gallon (combined) are both too small for your Tang. If he heals up will likely get stressed and get sick from being in a small tank or get super-aggressive long-term

Tallison · Mar 5, 2018

My guess would be the Maroon Clownfish cause they're known to be really aggressive. Like ROBG said though you have a pretty large fish in a 75 so its only going to get worse as the Purple tang and the Maroon gets larger. I'd either choose between the Clown and the Tang but your tank size is going to be a problem no matter what

EmdeReef · Mar 5, 2018

Any chance you can post a better pic? Is the tang showing any other symptoms? Scratching, rapid breathing? Any other fish affected by anything? Aggression is possible, but if you observe your tank for a bit you should be able to notice as it rarely just stops...
As said above, very few things can surprise in this hobby but a tang can usually stand its ground.

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

Tallison said:
My guess would be the Maroon Clownfish cause they're known to be really aggressive. Like ROBG said though you have a pretty large fish in a 75 so its only going to get worse as the Purple tang and the Maroon gets larger. I'd either choose between the Clown and the Tang but your tank size is going to be a problem no matter what

Here is a photo of the purple tang currently, about 2.5 hours after noticing the initial problem areas on the purple tang. The maroon clownfish will not get any larger as he is already been in captivity for 7 years, and possibly more years when he was most likely in the wild. I also don't believe that this fish is "large" in this tank. The fish is taking up less area of the tank than the maroon clownfish, but no one seems to have an issue with a maroon clownfish in a 75 gallon tank.

I did not come here to ask what your thoughts are on the fish that are in my tank. I am asking for advice on the spots that have appeared on my purple tang.

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

EmdeReef said:
Any chance you can post a better pic? Is the tang showing any other symptoms? Scratching, rapid breathing? Any other fish affected by anything? Aggression is possible, but if you observe your tank for a bit you should be able to notice as it rarely just stops...
As said above, very few things can surprise in this hobby but a tang can usually stand its ground.

No, there are no other symptoms that the tang is displaying.

Tallison · Mar 5, 2018

You can get mad all you want but when you title a post tank aggression and show a picture of a Tang in a 75G that's going to be people's first impression. Not trying to be the Tang police but overstocking a 75 G with big fish is going to cause aggression 10/10 times

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

I would not call this tank overstocked. I am definitely full in terms of fish right now. I didn’t want 2 tanks so my options were either 1. Combine into one tank, or 2. Get rid of some of the fish. I am attached to them all as I’ve had some of these fish for over 5 years. Also I wouldn’t call clownfish, gobys, or blended big fish. Only the tang is a large fish in my opinion.

EmdeReef · Mar 5, 2018

Do the spots look flat or is there anything coming off skin or looks like peeling?

It could stress/irritation, sometimes this happens and goes away after a few days, if there are no other symptoms. I’ve also seen this in cases of poisoning or oxygen depletion but usually with rapid breathing so guess not that. What are your params? @4FordFamily and @Humblefish ?

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

EmdeReef said:
Do the spots look flat or is there anything coming off skin or looks like peeling?

It could stress/irritation, sometimes this happens and goes away after a few days, if there are no other symptoms. I’ve also seen this in cases of poisoning or oxygen depletion but usually with rapid breathing so guess not that. What are your params? @4FordFamily and @Humblefish ?

I think it was definitely someone fighting as it was not there at 1:00 when I fed them or up till about 2 when I laid in bed, but then was there at 3:15. Now it is definitely looking better. There is nothing coming off the tang and the initial white spots have substantially subsided to the photo above. It could almost pass as an aberrant tang right now. The tank parameters are as follows

Temp - 76ºF (swings about .3ºF during the day)
Salinity - 1.026
Ph - 8.15 during the day and 7.90 at night
Ammonia - 0.00
Nitrite - 0.00
Nitrate - 0.00 (don't know why this stays so low [tested with salifert and API])
Phosphate - 0.03
Alkalinity - 9-9.5 (still playing with dosing)
Calcium - 420ppm
Magnesium - 1500ppm
Potassium - 420ppm
Iodine - 0.06
Iron - 0.00 (funny considering we're on a well, but ours is a deep water well) I dose daily with red sea coral colors part C for my goniopora

EmdeReef · Mar 5, 2018

That’s good news if it’s going away. But if it’s aggression you’ll have to deal with it either by removing the tang or other fish it’s fighting with, keep an eye out.

I wouldn’t move the tang to a 40g unless it’s short term for QT or treatment.

Tallison · Mar 5, 2018

It's your tank and ultimately you're going to be the one who can best assess wether or not it's aggression or from rubbing on the rocks. Observe as best you can and react appropriately

Mark Waltermire · Mar 5, 2018

5altkreep said:
Just because one person has been successful doing something, doesnt mean it wont fail 99% of the time.
You wouldnt leave a greyhound in a tiny kennel his whole life. (at least i hope not)
Regardless, it makes no difference to me what you do. But if you tone it down a little you will have more people willing to help you. Just dont be surprised when the answers arent what you want to hear.

First off I am completely calm, and any tone is merely being interpreted by what you think I am saying, but you don't know my personality and the way that I act to judge whether I am riled up, or perfectly calm.

Also I do not consider keeping a greyhound in a tiny kennel much different from anyone keeping fish in their aquarium, regardless of the size. I think if we all want to be truthful with each other then no fish should be in less than a 1000 gallon aquarium, being fed with water from a natural reef to not need to worry about any toxins, but this is not realistic. I think though that people need to have the decision with themselves are to whether they are really much better than another person because his kole tang is in a 6' tank rather than a purple tang in a 4' tank. I know that many people are successful in having tangs live for many, many years in a 55 gallon tank, so I don't need any validation in the acceptability of having a zebrasoma tang in a 4' tank.

HB AL · Mar 6, 2018

If it continues just sit in front of the tank and wait for the bully to rear his ugly head.

aquatony · Mar 6, 2018

Maroons are very territorial Watch the little bugger. No doubt he could destroy your tang

if he felt the need..

eatbreakfast · Mar 6, 2018

It is incredibly unlikely to be the royal gramma that attacked the purple tang, if it was attacked.

Much more likely it would have been the blenny, as they are both algae eaters, so commonly behave aggressively to each other. Or the maroon clown,as they are known to be quite aggressive.

Mark Waltermire said:
I also don't believe that this fish is "large" in this tank. The fish is taking up less area of the tank than the maroon clownfish, but no one seems to have an issue with a maroon clownfish in a 75 gallon tank.

I did not come here to ask what your thoughts are on the fish that are in my tank. I am asking for advice on the spots that have appeared on my purple tang.

Even though the tang may be comparable or smaller in size than the clown, their natural behaviors are very different. Clowns are site oriented, they stay put, and are not very active. By comparison tangs are very active, in nature, swimming many miles a day.

To say you didn't come here to get thoughts on the fish list but just want help with the issue at hand is a terrible approach to take. Often issues like this are inexorably tied with husbandry and flippantly dismissing the advice you were given in the sake of helping you is surprising.

Mark Waltermire · Mar 6, 2018

eatbreakfast said:
It is incredibly unlikely to be the royal gramma that attacked the purple tang, if it was attacked.

Much more likely it would have been the blenny, as they are both algae eaters, so commonly behave aggressively to each other. Or the maroon clown,as they are known to be quite aggressive.

Even though the tang may be comparable or smaller in size than the clown, their natural behaviors are very different. Clowns are site oriented, they stay put, and are not very active. By comparison tangs are very active, in nature, swimming many miles a day.

To say you didn't come here to get thoughts on the fish list but just want help with the issue at hand is a terrible approach to take. Often issues like this are inexorably tied with husbandry and flippantly dismissing the advice you were given in the sake of helping you is surprising.

Also though you need to consider that some people are saying things like it might be under-oxygenation, but then no one asks what skimmer I'm using, which is rated for a 200g tank. People are trying the skew it to sound like what they want to say.