Tank Crash imminent???

[Blueringed_Octo]

Hey everyone, So the backstory is I usually have trouble keeping new fish alive but for some reason can grow coral like no tomorrow. I mean that seriously because when I add fish they last in the DT for a couple weeks and then dead. So I still have the usual population of a few handful of fish and if I add like 2-3 at a time usually 1 or 2 don't make it. I still have no idea why but the reason I bring that up is to note that coral however do great. They thrive! So about 2 weeks ago I ordered a bunch of sps frags and even a torch. Thinking fine, since I do great with coral maybe I will just hold off on fish for awhile and look at some coral options. With that being said I just recently found out what Dino's are and I have the green and red stuff in a small to moderate amount in my tank. Plus a hair and bubble algae issue that is minor since the cuc has eaten most of it now but they tend to die off too from the dino's I just learned. So I was looking into getting a UV sterilizer as well to help with that and an Algae Scrubber possibly. While researching all of that and reading Carl's extensive article on UV's. I changed my filter socks to Red sea Filter cups and added a layer of the well recommended "Poly Filter" and then on top of that I added the standard Filter Floss in the cup and then added a 8.5" x 9" layer of filter floss over all four cups which fits perfectly and gets so much more stuff out of the water. It was a "cheaper and quicker" solution to clearing the water up than the UV route. I mention this incase anyone reading this knows something I don't that is crashing my tank. So about a week after I did that comes to present day. My coral frags are dying. Some literally are all skeletal and white. Others that I have had for awhile are browning it looks like a little. The only thing that looks like it's still happy from the recent shipment is the torch. My Apex mentioned my PH was dropping lower than usual at a 7.8/7.9 which is odd because it always sits around an 8.1/8.2. And salinity was at 3.1 so I thought okay, todays water change day anyways, I'm going to bring my Salinity up because that might help. So BEFORE I did my water change my params are as follows:

Salt: 31.5
PH: 7.9
Temp: 78.3
Alk: 10.5
Ca: 446
MG: 1349
Everything above was tested using the Apex system and Trident unit.

Phos: 0 tested with Hannah Reader
Nitrates: 0 Tested with Red Sea kit

Literally just finished the water change. I read somewhere that High Alk and ULNS is a no no so I shut my skimmer off completely for the night and I over fed the fish just now while main pump was off and let it sit for 20 min before I started the return pump back up. Skimmer is still off. I also read from searching before posting this that the Red Sea sump that comes with the XXL 750 Reefer is a Triton method Sump and my refuge kicks butt so well apparently along with the skimmer that there are literally no nutrients and my macro grows slow now even. That combined with the fact that I don't have a lot of fish in this massive 200 gal tank over crowded with coral and I think I created the ultimate fight for food starve fest among the coral by accident. Thus, why I mentioned all that stuff in the beginning.

So now the question is, What would you guys do?

These coral are about to die and I don't want to do anything stupid and make things worse since I am not looking at it from an outside perspective. Do I go out and buy some piece of equipment? Over feed everyday? Keep the skimmer on or off? Dose nutrients? I want these Dino's gone and I want my coral to and livestock to live. I am afraid to wake up tomorrow and see a system crash because the water change might of made things worse or because I decided to leave the skimmer off all night etc.

Thanks in advanced!

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Seems like you are on the right track with correction. I would cut the skimmer off 12 hours each day and slowly bring your nutrients up or cut back on fuge lighting by several hours and heavy feed. I would worry about the fuge lighting being cut back because it will keep your pH up so maybe trim any chaeto by about 1/3?

When time of day did you see a 7.8? Additional aeration and gas exchange could be an issue with either option so point a powerhead at the surface. For alk, let it come down naturally for a day before resuming dosing. Everything will be alright.

 

[W1ngz]

Poly filter is well recommended - for removing toxins and larger concentrations of heavy metals that may be contaminating the water, but poly shouldn't be used constantly. Regular extended use has probably stripped some elements from the water column completely. Remove all the chemical filtration pads, carbon, GFO, do a water change and stop changing things for 2-3 weeks.

Nitrate and phosphate at 0 is what is helping the dinos and also hurting the corals.

 

[Silent]

Not sure why you are running a fuge if you have very low fish. You could be creating a coral food deprived environment and that is the coral problem you are seeing. It could also be the fact that you changed the mechanical filtration and as you said, "

gets so much more stuff out of the water". Maybe that is also providing a little extra light to the ones you mentioned that are white.
Considering the dinos, the skimmer, fuge, low fish population, and 0 phos/nitrate I would say they are hungry for food and possibly trace elements.​

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

Seems like you are on the right track with correction. I would cut the skimmer off 12 hours each day and slowly bring your nutrients up or cut back on fuge lighting by several hours and heavy feed. I would worry about the fuge lighting being cut back because it will keep your pH up so maybe trim any chaeto by about 1/3?

When time of day did you see a 7.8? Additional aeration and gas exchange could be an issue with either option so point a powerhead at the surface. For alk, let it come down naturally for a day before resuming dosing. Everything will be alright.

I noticed the drop at 7.8 at 4am. The PH is not going up at all which I imagine is because the skimmer is off. I've had a low PH problem a long time ago and ran and airline from outside my house to the intake of the skimmer which helped raise the PH. So with Skimmer off its dropped. And if I run skimmer the tanks too low on nutrients. danged if I do and danged if I don't. I am keeping fuge light on to help with PH. chaeto grows super slow nowadays anyways. I have two wave maker gyres on opposite ends of my tank and as you may know they each have two adjustable sides. Each one has one side pointing up at the surface and the other aimed down and around the tank. So they randomly and alternatively disrupt the surface to help with gas exchange all day and night. I've had them like that for awhile now. Here are current readings.

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

Poly filter is well recommended - for removing toxins and larger concentrations of heavy metals that may be contaminating the water, but poly shouldn't be used constantly. Regular extended use has probably stripped some elements from the water column completely. Remove all the chemical filtration pads, carbon, GFO, do a water change and stop changing things for 2-3 weeks.

Nitrate and phosphate at 0 is what is helping the dinos and also hurting the corals.

Poly filter has been in for a little over a week. I will take it out today when I get home. I don't run any Carbon. No GFO, I did a water change last night. Should I just manually pull the Dinos out and over feed so they hopefully won't come back?

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

Not sure why you are running a fuge if you have very low fish. You could be creating a coral food deprived environment and that is the coral problem you are seeing. It could also be the fact that you changed the mechanical filtration and as you said, "
gets so much more stuff out of the water". Maybe that is also providing a little extra light to the ones you mentioned that are white.
Considering the dinos, the skimmer, fuge, low fish population, and 0 phos/nitrate I would say they are hungry for food and possibly trace elements.

I had the fuge setup since forever and never had an issue until now. But maybe over time the nutrients got less and less and its cleaning too well side by side with the Skimmer. I'm going to take the mechanical poly filter back out and over feed. Hopefully that works, I just don't want to crash the tank because of the attempt to fix one thing lead to another and then an imbalance that starts a domino effect to judgment day.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I totally see your issue. Buffers are an option but likely will raise alk a bit. Maybe to go get something like compressed o2?

 

[W1ngz]

Poly filter has been in for a little over a week. I will take it out today when I get home. I don't run any Carbon. No GFO, I did a water change last night. Should I just manually pull the Dinos out and over feed so they hopefully won't come back?

Siphoning them out won't hurt. It won't help a lot, but will help to remove whatever they are feeding on, since some of it has to be in the dinos. The overfeeding is more to raise the nitrate and phosphate. You could probably accomplish the same thing by only running your skimmer half the day (but that will reduce aeration and mess with the ph), or cut your refugium light period or intensity, if it's adjustable.

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

I totally see your issue. Buffers are an option but likely will raise alk a bit. Maybe to go get something like compressed o2?

Compressed co2 i thought was for freshwater tanks to help plants grow and negate algae growth?

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

Siphoning them out won't hurt. It won't help a lot, but will help to remove whatever they are feeding on, since some of it has to be in the dinos. The overfeeding is more to raise the nitrate and phosphate. You could probably accomplish the same thing by only running your skimmer half the day (but that will reduce aeration and mess with the ph), or cut your refugium light period or intensity, if it's adjustable.

Okay will do! And Right now I wasn't running the skimmer at all since last night. Even when I do run it, the collection cup doesn't fill but maybe halfway after a couple weeks. I can adjust my fuge light schedule to be reduced but can't adjust it's intensity since it is just a standard led light bulb.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

Compressed co2 i thought was for freshwater tanks to help plants grow and negate algae growth?

I was just thinking like oxygen not co2. Bypass the natural oxygenation

 

[W1ngz]

I was just thinking like oxygen not co2. Bypass the natural oxygenation

I wouldn't use any compressed gasses in a reef. pH in the tank is largely based on CO2 levels being at balance with the room. Forcibly changing that balance would be better done with CO2 scrubber, but there's already too many things being changed in this tank right now.

 

[ScottB]

As to the skimmer. Keep it running 24/7 BUT run it dry, so it does not collect skimmate. Or dump any skimmate back in the tank each morning/night.

Managing stable salinity is JOB #1 for reducing animal stress. Don't trust a conductivity probe for this. Calibrated, quality refractometer only. You can look to the APEX probe to warn you of ATO problems (stuck Open, stuck Closed) but not beyond that really.

Next, your ALK value at 31.5 salinity is extremely high. At seawater of 35 parts, it would be off the chart. Combine that with low nutrient and your corals are getting crushed. Natural sea water is 7 ALK. If you have been dosing buffer or Kalk to raise pH, throw it in your neighbor's garbage can. If not, I'd suggest a lower ALK salt like RS blue bucket.

And then nutrient. In a big system without much fish, this is going to be difficult. You either need to get more fish poop going or dose nitrate and phosphates. Shut down the refugium or shorten light cycle and harvest more.

Not to sound harsh, just want spare you some grief: If you cannot consistently keep fish alive there is no way your SPS will survive beyond a couple weeks. They are infinitely more intolerant of everything.

As to fish dying quickly, I would speculate along three lines:
a) acclimation procedure fail
b) sourcing sick/cold diseased fish
c) tank has Ich or velvet or something (I am not a fish disease guy)

Hang in there.

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

I was just thinking like oxygen not co2. Bypass the natural oxygenation

Wouldn't just using an air stone with outside air line be better for keeping PH up?

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

I wouldn't use any compressed gasses in a reef. pH in the tank is largely based on CO2 levels being at balance with the room. Forcibly changing that balance would be better done with CO2 scrubber, but there's already too many things being changed in this tank right now.

Good to know, thank you!

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

As to the skimmer. Keep it running 24/7 BUT run it dry, so it does not collect skimmate. Or dump any skimmate back in the tank each morning/night.

Managing stable salinity is JOB #1 for reducing animal stress. Don't trust a conductivity probe for this. Calibrated, quality refractometer only. You can look to the APEX probe to warn you of ATO problems (stuck Open, stuck Closed) but not beyond that really.

Next, your ALK value at 31.5 salinity is extremely high. At seawater of 35 parts, it would be off the chart. Combine that with low nutrient and your corals are getting crushed. Natural sea water is 7 ALK. If you have been dosing buffer or Kalk to raise pH, throw it in your neighbor's garbage can. If not, I'd suggest a lower ALK salt like RS blue bucket.

And then nutrient. In a big system without much fish, this is going to be difficult. You either need to get more fish poop going or dose nitrate and phosphates. Shut down the refugium or shorten light cycle and harvest more.

Not to sound harsh, just want spare you some grief: If you cannot consistently keep fish alive there is no way your SPS will survive beyond a couple weeks. They are infinitely more intolerant of everything.

As to fish dying quickly, I would speculate along three lines:
a) acclimation procedure fail
b) sourcing sick/cold diseased fish
c) tank has Ich or velvet or something (I am not a fish disease guy)

Hang in there.

Thanks for the in depth advice. I appreciate your input and don't take it harshly trust me. I just care about the solution to this problem for my livestock more than an ego or reception to advice. Reef tanks to me seem like math problems and puzzles. Usually always involves doing things in certain order to solve whatever problem. I like puzzles but not when the risks are this high lol. I know the Alk is considered high by people I have heard from on here but prior to this, I had been going off Red Seas recommendation on high Alk promotes coral growth (with nutrients ofcourse) but mine levels all dropped to undetectable even with the ULNS unit from Hannah. I don't use a buffer or Kawlk. But I used to awhile back with no success so I stopped. I have the probe for salinity and my own calibrated higher end refractometor. They measure the salt levels differently as for example. I'd measure my water salinity with the refrac and it would say 34ppm but the probe would say 32ppm. Recalibrated both and same readings. I contacted Apex custom support to relay this info and they replied stating they measure salinity by different methods and that the probe was more accurate than the other but that temp flux alters the readings which is why they have that option on their software to select for the temp if you're using their salinity probe in conjunction. It calibrates and corrects this. So I suppose they know what they're doing.

How do you run a skimmer "dry" where it runs but doesn't collect anything?

 

[ScottB]

Thanks for the in depth advice. I appreciate your input and don't take it harshly trust me. I just care about the solution to this problem for my livestock more than an ego or reception to advice. Reef tanks to me seem like math problems and puzzles. Usually always involves doing things in certain order to solve whatever problem. I like puzzles but not when the risks are this high lol. I know the Alk is considered high by people I have heard from on here but prior to this, I had been going off Red Seas recommendation on high Alk promotes coral growth (with nutrients ofcourse) but mine levels all dropped to undetectable even with the ULNS unit from Hannah. I don't use a buffer or Kawlk. But I used to awhile back with no success so I stopped. I have the probe for salinity and my own calibrated higher end refractometor. They measure the salt levels differently as for example. I'd measure my water salinity with the refrac and it would say 34ppm but the probe would say 32ppm. Recalibrated both and same readings. I contacted Apex custom support to relay this info and they replied stating they measure salinity by different methods and that the probe was more accurate than the other but that temp flux alters the readings which is why they have that option on their software to select for the temp if you're using their salinity probe in conjunction. It calibrates and corrects this. So I suppose they know what they're doing.

How do you run a skimmer "dry" where it runs but doesn't collect anything?

That's the spirit.

Adjust the skimmer so that the bubbles stay at the bottom of the neck. You will still get 90% of the pH effect without removing any simmed nutrients from your tank.

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

That's the spirit.

Adjust the skimmer so that the bubbles stay at the bottom of the neck. You will still get 90% of the pH effect without removing any simmed nutrients from your tank.

Thank you! Been messing with the tank since this post yesterday and wanted to say thanks

 

[Blueringed_Octo]

Just for everyone that was helping me, I wanted to say thank you! I took out all my Poly Filter and just use filter floss. Skimmer was adjusted. I've been over feeding, and I noticed already that a lot of the Dino's have dwindled. Still have more to go but progress is progress. I also know know why my fish always died. My theory is, the fish would always do fine in QT and then die after a couple weeks in DT. The only fish that kept dying were gobies. They filter the sand in their gills and they must've been getting killed by the toxins in the Dino and Cynos on the sand bed. Sad I know but at least I have a better understanding of what was causing it so I can correct it. Had no idea it was toxic.